Mamiya 645 Pro - is there hope?

Bormental · Jul 10, 2020

I have been thinking about adding a 645 camera to my collection. Having read a lot of opinions, including photrio forums, I have settled on Mamiya 645 Pro (TL). There was only one nagging issue, the infamous "mirror stop" problem.

And sure enough, the camera which I just received from Japan, while in absolutely pristine condition, came with the stop completely missing. The mirror itself is stuck in half-closed state because it's pushing on the spring which used to hold the stopper in place and now is just protruding into the chamber. My guess is that the seller did not even bother checking.

So I was wondering, what is the community opinion on Mamiya 645 Pro reliability? $1,000 is a lot of money, I would prefer to spend it on something I'll use for 10+ years. I am a high-volume shooter, and even being just one of several cameras, I expect my 645 camera to do at least 40-50 rolls a year. My only current MF camera is doing 2-3 rolls a week.

Should I try another? Did they improve this plastic piece in the "TL" version? TBH I loved everything else about it. The handling (with the crank, not the grip), focusing, everything feels just right.

MattKing · Jul 10, 2020

This is the first time I've heard of the problem.
My 645 Pro has been fine for all the years I've owned it, and I see no signs of it deteriorating.
I bought mine used several years ago. My sense is that it had been extensively used, but not abused, before I got it.

John Will · Jul 10, 2020

The mirror stop breakage was an issue for some 645 Pro cameras a few years ago when Mamiya ran out of replacements. Nowadays it is easily replaced by a 3D printed part. See here: http://jaredlichtenbergerphoto.com/blog/mamiya-645-pro-mirror-stop-repair and https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3...xsVekPw0o3IlPkNleHaUQ1IEa4IU0EveqgdqctIJ17hLE
If you don't have access to a 3D printer there are several on-line companies that can make it for you.

Bormental · Jul 11, 2020

John, I linked your URLs in my original post, so I'm aware. My intent here is to figure out how common these problems are. TBH I am not overly interested in 3D printing parts for a $1K camera. There's a persona on photo.net (Rodeo Joe, IIRC) who claims that Mamiya 645 Pro/TL/Super is the least reliable MF camera on Earth. I was hoping to see 5+ comments like "I've been doing 100+ rolls a year for 10 years, no problem" Basically, trying to see if I should bother with another instance.

John Will · Jul 11, 2020

Well I can't say "I've been doing 100+ rolls a year for 10 years, no problem" but I can say I've been doing 10-15 rolls a year since 2002 and the camera and it's 'brother' a 645 Pro TL have never had any problems. However the backs are another matter, I had one back that had film spacing problems and another with counter gear issues. Both the problems were 5-6 years ago and were fixed but I retired the backs and brought 2 new (old stock) backs that have not given any trouble. I have a third, older back, that is also fine. As a safeguard I had 2 mirror stops printed by a friend but have never had to use them, touch wood.

I guess with any older camera reliability issues are always a possibility, but my 645 Pro's have certainly been more reliable than my 645 AFD which has needed several repairs and is now a shelf queen as the cost of the last issue exceeded a replacement camera.

I have stopped purchasing from Japanese sellers as many of their items are low quality at high prices. I now only buy locally or from a few trusted European sellers who do not overprice and guarantee their sales .

Bormental · Jul 11, 2020

John Will said:
Well I can't say "I've been doing 100+ rolls a year for 10 years, no problem" but I can say I've been doing 10-15 rolls a year since 2002 and the camera and it's 'brother' a 645 Pro TL have never had any problems.

Thanks, John! I may try another one, they feel really nice ergonomically and the lenses, I hear, are pretty spectacular.

Huss · Jul 11, 2020

I never had any issues with my ProTL. I'm trying to figure out how one goes for $1000!! Did it come with a whole set of lenses?

FYI I bought a perfect condition 80mm 1.9. After a couple of years it completely hazed up even though I pampered it and stored it in a dry box, as I do with all my gear.
I later found out this is common so I'd avoid that lens. (also unrepairable due to the construction).

Bormental · Jul 11, 2020

Huss said:
I never had any issues with my ProTL. I'm trying to figure out how one goes for $1000!! Did it come with a whole set of lenses?

It was offered with 55mm f/2.8, 80mm f/2.8, AE finder, two backs, auto-winder + the original crank (this thing by itself goes for $100 these days...)

Donald Qualls · Jul 11, 2020

Bormental said:
There's a persona on photo.net (Rodeo Joe, IIRC) who claims that Mamiya 645 Pro/TL/Super is the least reliable MF camera on Earth.

An obvious canard. That "honor" must surely go to the Kiev 88 or Praktica Six.

ignatiu5 · Jul 11, 2020

I owned a Pro (not the TL version) with the WG401 grip for about 5 years or so. I bought it used, and while it wasn't my preferred 645 body, I did put many many rolls through it. I don't recall a single issue with it, mirror stop or otherwise, before I sold it last year.

Jeremy Mudd · Jul 11, 2020

I have a few Pro/ProTL bodies and use them quite frequently. Just shot some cityscapes this morning with one combined with the 50mm shift lens and Ektar.

I personally have never had a problem with the mirror stop.

I have had two problems in the past few years:

1. During one session the camera wouldn't fire, and I switched backs during the panic and it worked just fine with the other back. When I had a chance to dig into it later it turns out something was wrong with the back - it wouldn't work with anything greater than 100 ISO on the dial. Backs are still fairly cheap so took the insert and dark slide and binned the rest.
2. I have had two bodies just stop working - wouldn't fire anymore. Something failed in the electronics - the mirror stops are still good and I am saving them for "if" that event ever happens to another of my Pro/ProTL bodies.

That said I really enjoy the system. I don't use them as often as my RB67 ProSD but when I need a "lighter" medium format set-up I usually grab the 645.

There was some a-hole on the medium and large format Facebook page who used to routinely bitches about the 645 Pro series cameras, about how fragile they are, their lenses suck, plastic pieces of crap, blah blah blah. Most of the time people like that have an axe to grind and its not really about the equipment.

Prices on the 645 Pro/ProTL cameras have really jumped in the last few years. There was a time I could easily score a near mint body for $100. Now they are $250-$400 depending on condition.

Jeremy

MattKing · Jul 11, 2020

Like all 20+ year old cameras, the 645 Pro and Pro Tl can break down, and the supply of replacement parts isn't what it was when the camera was in production.
And some of these cameras were heavily used by wedding photographers - think hundreds or thousands of rolls per year.
But I only know of one person who had one die, where it could not be repaired.
In addition, the modular nature of the system means that the bodies themselves aren't where most of your investment is. So if you wear one out, you can replace just the body.

Bormental · Jul 11, 2020

Newer medium format cameras are scary this way... Unlike my Nikon FM3a, my Fuji GF670 can't even fire a shutter without film loaded, not to mention the battery. Every time I press the shutter button with a new roll, my heart sinks a bit.

Random Q: what would be the closest MF equivalent of Nikon FM3a? Namely:

Decent built-in meter and aperture-priority mode
Fully functional shutter at all speeds without a battery

I.e. the best of both worlds: you get most of the modern conveniences of electronics, plus reliability of a fully-mechanical camera.

images39 · Jul 11, 2020

My 645 Pro has been my main film camera for 10 years. Not sure if I shoot 100 rolls every year, but probably close to that. It's been extremely reliable for me; haven't had any problems with it. The lenses are superb. It was mint when I bought it, so I was pretty confident that it hadn't been a wedding camera (those were used hard). The battery seems to last ages, and the meter in the prism finder is excellent (it has both spot and averaging meters). I hadn't heard about the mirror stop problem, and it's good to know about that, but regardless I can strongly recommend the 645 Pro or Pro TL.

I haven't kept up with prices for this system, but $1,000 seems high.

Dale

MattKing · Jul 11, 2020

Bormental said:
Newer medium format cameras are scary this way... Unlike my Nikon FM3a, my Fuji GF670 can't even fire a shutter without film loaded, not to mention the battery. Every time I press the shutter button with a new roll, my heart sinks a bit.

Random Q: what would be the closest MF equivalent of Nikon FM3a? Namely:

Decent built-in meter and aperture-priority mode

Fully functional shutter at all speeds without a battery

I.e. the best of both worlds: you get most of the modern conveniences of electronics, plus reliability of a fully-mechanical camera.

I don't know of a medium format camera that meets those criteria.
There are relatively few medium format system cameras that have built in meters - most require accessory metering finders. The exceptions - Pentax 645, Contax, ? are battery dependent.
And if using a camera results in your heart sinking, why are you using a camera???
Use them, enjoy them, care reasonably for them and, as the wise sage sang:
"Don't worry, be happy"

moto-uno · Jul 11, 2020

If as you say you're shooting 40 to 50 rolls of film a year , well your heart must be in your shoes if it sinks with every shot , just saying . Peter

beemermark · Jul 11, 2020

I recently sold my 645 pro/80mm lens/AE finder/120 back for around $700 on another forum. I had it priced low so I don't think $1000 with additional lenses is out of line. I also never heard of the "mirror stop" issue and never had any problems in the 5+ years I owned it.

johnha · Jul 12, 2020

I bought my 645 pro new around 1995 as part of the SV kit and haven't had any problems with it. I'm mostly shooting a P6x7 for the past few years so it only gets light use these days.

I think the problem is overblown, many of the most prominent reports seem to coincide with amateurish attempts to 'correct' for focus errors.

The revival of medium format prices doesn't seem to take account that most are at least 20yrs old now, most parts are no longer available and knowledgeable techs are fewer every year. I shudder at GF670 & Mamiya 7 prices, 20+ year old kit, effectively without any support.

I've thought about selling my 645 pro but it would likely end up in the hands of a numpty who'll wreck it in a week and then claim it never worked.

reddesert · Jul 12, 2020

Bormental said:
Random Q: what would be the closest MF equivalent of Nikon FM3a? Namely:

Decent built-in meter and aperture-priority mode

Fully functional shutter at all speeds without a battery

I.e. the best of both worlds: you get most of the modern conveniences of electronics, plus reliability of a fully-mechanical camera.

Sometimes, one has to decide what one's objective is when making pictures and if there are features one can live without or work around. Like, does one really need all of medium format, auto metering, and full mechanical speeds, or can some of those be relaxed? Medium format is usually slower operating and more bulky and expensive per shot, so maybe you can get by without autoexposure, or carry a pocket full of spare batteries?

I can barely think of a 35mm SLR that meets those criteria for aperture-priority auto and fully mechanical shutter - ok, the FM3a, but are there others? For example, all other Nikons (AFAIK) with aperture priority auto have an electronic shutter and only a couple of mechanical speeds. Many fixed lens leaf shutter rangefinders like the Canonet have shutter priority auto with the battery plus mechanical speeds, but they are not system cameras.

I have an example, but it's super niche. A Fuji G690 RF with both the battery dependent AE lens and the regular mechanical shutter lens. These are 40-50 years old of course.

Who knows if the current boomlet in MF prices will last. For any given camera one needs to consider how well it's been treated and the price and availability of spares, in addition to the feature list. As an amateur I'm never going to put the load on a piece of equipment that, say, a working wedding or studio photographer did BITD.

Bormental · Jul 12, 2020

reddesert said:
Sometimes, one has to decide what one's objective is when making pictures and if there are features one can live without or work around.

I've had bad luck with MF. Three cameras in a row were defective, I'm glad I bought from sellers who took them back. I was hoping that getting one with electronic + mechanical guts will give it some redundancy...

Kodachromeguy · Jul 12, 2020

One option to consider is the Hasselblad V system. There is no automation, but you can buy the motorized body. And at least as of 2019, Hasselblad-Bron in New Jersey still serviced the mechanical bodies, backs, and lenses. (Let's not go down the always jamming rathole; that nonsense went on and on in another thread.)

reddesert · Jul 13, 2020

Bormental said:
I've had bad luck with MF. Three cameras in a row were defective, I'm glad I bought from sellers who took them back. I was hoping that getting one with electronic + mechanical guts will give it some redundancy...

Well that's annoying, but I don't think features like dual electronic/mechanical speeds would clearly increase reliability. In some ways, the fewer features, the better. How badly do you need the interchangeable backs of the 645 Pro? The original M645 are pretty solid if you get one that's not abused.

Today, a medium format camera on the market may have been professionally used, put away in 2005, and sat in a closet for 15 years. They are generally reliable but that's not an optimal history ("rode hard, put away wet"). A 645 camera should easily do 40-50 rolls a year - I would guess that an event photographer in the 1990s could easily burn 40-50 rolls of 120 or 220 a week, and likely getting their outfit serviced yearly.

Right now may not be the best time to look for good deals on an MF camera, because there seems to be both a boomlet and a decline of supply (I would guess that coronavirus means less buying / selling activity in the US, and maybe the cream of the crop from Japan has been sold, leaving dross).

It's also a question of how much is your time worth? Like, maybe you should try to buy a camera from a dealer who has tried it, where you can talk to someone in person or on the phone who has actually handled the camera, or from a Photrio member with a good reputation. Even if it means waiting or paying a little more. There are fewer brick and mortar stores and coronavirus limits in-person interactions, but I think in the Bay Area you may still have options.

ruilourosa · Jul 13, 2020

The reason to go for Mamiya 645 pro (or pro tl) is lenses... but the bodies go... and don´t come back... had watched 3 dieing in my hands... eletromagnetic cell that controls the shutter or something similar...

traded everything for a swc...

Donald Qualls · Jul 13, 2020

Bormental said:
I was hoping that getting one with electronic + mechanical guts will give it some redundancy...

Quite the opposite -- you get more points of failure, at least in a camera that needs both working to be usable.

Generally the "last generation" where you could gain redundancy from having both electronics and mechanicals was the early auto-exposure SLR and RFs -- the ones that would still run in fully manual mode without a battery, hence didn't depend on the electronics to simply set and make exposures. No auto-focus, obviously.

For my own use, I'd love to find a 645 SLR that's built like an RB67 -- that is, fully mechanical, but much lighter than the RB (ideally with inexpensive glass like the RB, too).

johnha · Jul 13, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
For my own use, I'd love to find a 645 SLR that's built like an RB67 -- that is, fully mechanical, but much lighter than the RB (ideally with inexpensive glass like the RB, too).

Bronica S2a with a 6x4.5 back?

The beauty of modular MF systems is that if one component fails you can easily replace it. Leaf shutters put the complicated bits in the lenses rather than the body, metering prisms likewise. On something like a C330, the body basically only advances the film, all the other linkages are on the outside.

Mamiya 645 Pro - is there hope?

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