Mamiya 645 1000s issue with missing frames

methodman · May 1, 2024

Hi everyone,

I'm a bit stumped as to what could be causing the problem so I'm hoping someone here might have a suggestion.

I am having an issue where I get a roll developed and the last few shots are completely unexposed despite me having shot them with everything seemingly working fine. It is the final few frames of the roll that are unexposed but the ones missing are the first I took so the film must not be winding initially before then deciding it's going to work fine for the rest. It is also not on every roll (it happened to 1 of the last 2 I got developed and a couple a while back).
This makes me think it must be something along the lines of the film not being engaged but I don't know what the mechanism is. Or could this simply be me not taking care to fully insert the film holder?

Any ideas welcome.

Thanks.

Dustin McAmera · May 1, 2024

Is the camera new to you?

Mamiya_Repair · May 1, 2024

In most cases with these symptoms, the issue is that the frame counter is not resetting properly. This causes the camera to shoot exposures on the film backing paper initially so the first few photos will not record on film and then number 15 will come up too soon and then the film will wind on and no exposures will be made on the last part of the film. These cameras are 40+ years old and lubricants are drying out. Your camera needs a full servicing.

koraks · May 2, 2024

methodman said:
the last few shots are completely unexposed despite me having shot them with everything seemingly working fine. It is the final few frames of the roll that are unexposed but the ones missing are the first I took

Hold on, if I compare this to what @Mamiya_Repair says above, it sounds different. You're missing shots at the start of the roll, but you also have empty frames at the end? Are all frames at the end empty, or just some of them? Is it possible to post a photograph of the entire roll, so the pattern becomes visible?

Also, welcome to Photrio!

methodman · May 2, 2024

koraks said:
Hold on, if I compare this to what @Mamiya_Repair says above, it sounds different. You're missing shots at the start of the roll, but you also have empty frames at the end? Are all frames at the end empty, or just some of them? Is it possible to post a photograph of the entire roll, so the pattern becomes visible?

Also, welcome to Photrio!

Thanks for the welcome! Yes so the photos missing are always the first few that I took but when I get the developed film back the unexposed frames are the last few. So it's not missing at both ends. Hopefully the photos show what I'm talking about.

methodman · May 2, 2024

Dustin McAmera said:
Is the camera new to you?

I've had it about 3 years but haven't used it that much. Probably 10 rolls in that time with this problem occurring on 3 rolls.

koraks · May 2, 2024

Are you sure that you were exposing frames beyond the last one that's on the roll?
Btw, most of those frames look quite dramatically overexposed; several stops at least.
Are you sure you're loading the film properly, advancing until START shows at the arrow mark in the film insert before closing the back?

methodman · May 2, 2024

koraks said:
Are you sure that you were exposing frames beyond the last one that's on the roll?
Btw, most of those frames look quite dramatically overexposed; several stops at least.
Are you sure you're loading the film properly, advancing until START shows at the arrow mark in the film insert before closing the back?

Sorry don't quite understand your first question. Pretty sure I'm loading the film correctly and like I said it's working fine on the majority of the rolls and I'm certainly not loading it any different between them.

So I load the film as you said, the counter is showing correctly as I shoot 15 frames. But then say 1-6 (the number missing has varied) are not there when I get them back. But rather than those first 6 of the roll being blank, it's the last 6 that are blank. So that first exposure on the picture above was actually the 7th photo I took after loading.

As for overexposure that is possible as these are all long night exposures but either way they've come out just right after whatever processing the lab has done after scanning.

koraks · May 2, 2024

Okay I understand; seems like you're confirming the suspicions of @Mamiya_Repair . It wasn't clear to me you were missing exposures you were making at the start and the end of the roll, or only at the start. It seems to be the latter, with the remaining frames being shifted to the start of the roll.

Overexposed images are often salvageable.

Dustin McAmera · May 2, 2024

Seems you could explain this most easily if you hadn't advanced the film to the arrows at the start before putting the film in, so your missing first few frames would be on the leader section of paper, and then the camera would think it had finished the roll when there was still film left. But if you say you loaded it correctly, I'm not saying otherwise.
I wonder if there's a thing that could go wrong with the film-carrier insertion such that the counter advances but the film doesn't, when you advance to frame 1. I think if gears were not engaging properly you'd hear it or feel it.

methodman · May 2, 2024

koraks said:
Okay I understand; seems like you're confirming the suspicions of @Mamiya_Repair . It wasn't clear to me you were missing exposures you were making at the start and the end of the roll, or only at the start. It seems to be the latter, with the remaining frames being shifted to the start of the roll.

Overexposed images are often salvageable.

I'm not saying this is wrong but if the counter wasn't resetting all the way to the beginning, wouldn't the problem then manifest as me only being able to shoot a few photos before the camera incorrectly recognised the film as being finished? I just can't quite understand it.

methodman · May 2, 2024

Dustin McAmera said:
Seems you could explain this most easily if you hadn't advanced the film to the arrows at the start before putting the film in, so your missing first few frames would be on the leader section of paper, and then the camera would think it had finished the roll when there was still film left. But if you say you loaded it correctly, I'm not saying otherwise.
I wonder if there's a thing that could go wrong with the film-carrier insertion such that the counter advances but the film doesn't, when you advance to frame 1. I think if gears were not engaging properly you'd hear it or feel it.

Yes that was my thinking - something allowing the counter to advance but not move the film. That's why I thought it could be that the film insert wasn't quite in place properly but when I tested it by putting it in loosely and then closing the back it seems like the back always pushes it into the correct place anyway. I suppose it could be the lining up the arrows at the start thing and I could be having a complete brain fart when loading some times.
I will probably continue using whilst being extra vigilant about loading and checking the counter and then see if I run into the problem again because I have very little spare money to spend on servicing at the moment.

Dustin McAmera · May 2, 2024

methodman said:
very little spare money

ain't it the truth. Also, the few proper camera-maintenance people I had bookmarked have all retired or just quietly disappeared. I was using my Exa recently with a Primoplan, and noticed that the lens has a bit of a film of dirt on an inside surface. It's good enough that I'd prefer to pay someone to clean it rather than try myself; but places I would have sent it to aren't there any more.

MattKing · May 2, 2024

Do you have another insert that you can test the camera with?

methodman · May 2, 2024

MattKing said:
Do you have another insert that you can test the camera with?

I don't but that's a good idea, thanks. I'll have a look into buying another if it's not too expensive.

OAPOli · May 2, 2024

Maybe you can clarify. The first shots you took don't appear on the roll, yet you heard the shutter fire? Or those pictures do appear on the roll but offset after the blank section, and the missing pictures are those taken last?

MattKing · May 2, 2024

methodman said:
I don't but that's a good idea, thanks. I'll have a look into buying another if it's not too expensive.

If you were nearby, I could lend you a couple .
There may be others in the UK who could do the same.

OAPOli · May 2, 2024

Nevermind what I wrote, I think I understand the issue. The shutter fired for your first shots, but those were before the top-right in your picture. Then the rest of the pictures were correctly acquired, chronologically from left-right and top-bottom on the picture you showed. Is that sequence correct?

I think it's exactly as @Mamiya_Repair said. The counter didn't properly reset to "S" but in between "S" and 1. So when you loaded the film, it got to 1 too early, exposing the backing paper for the first few shot until it actually reached the film. When it reached 15, the roll had to be spooled up, missing the rest of the film.

I had a m645 with a counter that didn't reset. On the film chamber there is a gear that connects with the film insert. You can put a drop of fine oil on the shaft of the gear. Or confirm that the counter is at "S" before putting the insert. If not, a little tug on the gear should reset it. Ideally one would have to clean the mechanism.

reddesert · May 2, 2024

You can test the loading and operation with a roll of junk film or even just a roll of backing paper. Load the camera, fire off several frames, and when you're on frame 5 or whatever, open up the camera and see whether the film/paper is at frame 5 (approximately). If you use paper only, it will likely be slightly off, but the difference between frame 5 and only on frame 2 should be apparent. (I think the M645 counter will work with just a roll of paper w/o much slipping, but have not tried recently.)

The counter should reset once you open the back, so then you have to rewind the spool of paper to test again, but using paper makes testing much less painful than burning film, of course.

methodman · May 3, 2024

OAPOli said:
Nevermind what I wrote, I think I understand the issue. The shutter fired for your first shots, but those were before the top-right in your picture. Then the rest of the pictures were correctly acquired, chronologically from left-right and top-bottom on the picture you showed. Is that sequence correct?

I think it's exactly as @Mamiya_Repair said. The counter didn't properly reset to "S" but in between "S" and 1. So when you loaded the film, it got to 1 too early, exposing the backing paper for the first few shot until it actually reached the film. When it reached 15, the roll had to be spooled up, missing the rest of the film.

I had a m645 with a counter that didn't reset. On the film chamber there is a gear that connects with the film insert. You can put a drop of fine oil on the shaft of the gear. Or confirm that the counter is at "S" before putting the insert. If not, a little tug on the gear should reset it. Ideally one would have to clean the mechanism.

Yes you understand the problem correctly. In the situation you describe would that really account for 6 missing shots? It doesn't feel like you wind through 6 shots worth of backing paper at the start of a roll but maybe I'm wrong.

methodman · May 3, 2024

reddesert said:
You can test the loading and operation with a roll of junk film or even just a roll of backing paper. Load the camera, fire off several frames, and when you're on frame 5 or whatever, open up the camera and see whether the film/paper is at frame 5 (approximately). If you use paper only, it will likely be slightly off, but the difference between frame 5 and only on frame 2 should be apparent. (I think the M645 counter will work with just a roll of paper w/o much slipping, but have not tried recently.)

The counter should reset once you open the back, so then you have to rewind the spool of paper to test again, but using paper makes testing much less painful than burning film, of course.

A good idea, thanks.

methodman · May 3, 2024

MattKing said:
If you were nearby, I could lend you a couple .
There may be others in the UK who could do the same.

That's kind of you. Thanks for your help.

OAPOli · May 3, 2024

methodman said:
Yes you understand the problem correctly. In the situation you describe would that really account for 6 missing shots? It doesn't feel like you wind through 6 shots worth of backing paper at the start of a roll but maybe I'm wrong.

There is room for 4 shots between the arrow and the film, and given it's position in the loading sequence, 6 shots would be possible. Did you notice an abnormally short winding before the shutter was cocked? Have you tested whether the counter resets properly?

methodman · May 3, 2024

OAPOli said:
There is room for 4 shots between the arrow and the film, and given it's position in the loading sequence, 6 shots would be possible. Did you notice an abnormally short winding before the shutter was cocked? Have you tested whether the counter resets properly?

The counter doesn't always reset properly which I did notice recently so I had been doing it manually like you mentioned before. This obviously makes it sound like a cut and dried case of counter issue so I'd not mentioned it yet because my instinct had been that it was something else but it is sounding fairly likely to be the culprit, I have to admit. Can't say I noticed an abnormally short winding time but I haven't used this camera particularly frequently so it is something I could have missed.

I will try again and pay extra attention to the counter when loading and see if I run into the problem again.

Just for the sake of my understanding, if I were to make sure that the counter has fully reset and that the film is loaded correctly and yet I still had the issue with missing shots, would that rule out it being an issue with the counter? Is it possible that there could be an issue where the counter is displaying all the correct numbers but not working properly?

Thanks.

MattKing · May 3, 2024

I can't recall whether the 1000s has a multi-exposure capability, but if it does, it might be either set to "on" or engaging and dis-engaging on its own.

Mamiya 645 1000s issue with missing frames

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