Mamiya 645 1000s, artifacts / bands of light on my images. Shutter issue or light leak?

avizzini · Jun 17, 2018

I have had a chance to shoot about 10 rolls of film on a Mamiya 645 1000s that I acquired a month or so ago. I've noticed, on rare occasions, artifacts appearing on my images. Of the 10 rolls, I've seen similar issues on 9 images, on different rolls and different frame #s. Some rolls had no problems, some had one, one had multiple...

You can see the 9 sample images with the artifact highlighted and the settings being used...

Here is a log of all the images taken, maybe you can find a pattern? The problem ones are in red.

I developed the film myself and had it scanned at a shop. These artifacts can be seen on the negatives so it's not the scanning. The artifact occurred in nearly the same location on each of the images, I couldn't imagine development issues causing identical issues in identical locations.

I can't seem to find any patterns in regards to film, aperture, or shutter speed. The location and appearance is consistent but I don't know why it has only shown up on 9 of 150 shots.

When the artifacts/bands of light appear on the image, there is sometimes a band that extends beyond the image to the edge of the negative (at relatively the same position). Though, sometimes the artifacts appear and I don't notice any band (maybe it's just really faint).

I'm leaning towards this being a light leak problem. I've recently had a CLA performed and the seals replaced but, maybe something was missed? It seems to happen more on sunny days. Roll #8 was unusual in that it happened 6 times, it was a sunny day. The subsequent Roll #10 and #11 were fine, so it didn't stay worse after #8 but, they weren't taken in the daylight.

If it was a shutter issue wouldn't it varry more, especially based on the shutter speed? This has happened at 1/250, 1/500, & 1/1000.

Sgore · Jun 17, 2018

It may not be the camera. I was having a similar leak to your first photo, and I traced it to my developing tank

paul ron · Jun 17, 2018

looks like a light leak. its too consistant to be anything else.

do the light leak test using a bright light inside the camera and checking every nook n cranny in a darkened room. also try firing the camera with the back open to see if the shutter is leaking.

avizzini · Jun 17, 2018

Sgore said:
It may not be the camera. I was having a similar leak to your first photo, and I traced it to my developing tank

What type of tank were you using? I'm using a Paterson Super System 4. Was what you saw this consistant and at the same time happening on random frames, but not all the frames nor every roll?

paul ron said:
...also try firing the camera with the back open to see if the shutter is leaking.

I'm not following here, I tried shining a flashlight through the shutter while it was closed and the mirror was up, didn't notice any leak there. I'm not sure how firing the camera plays into testing it?

shutterfinger · Jun 17, 2018

http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/assets/files/documentation/M645_1000S_v4.pdf
Which finder do you have on the camera? What developing tank and reel are you using?
Focal plane shutters use two curtains. In a released state you are looking at curtain 2, in a cocked state curtain 1.
Developing tank, finder, film compartment are the most likely sources especially when bright light is at a certain angle to the camera or tank.

avizzini · Jun 17, 2018

shutterfinger said:
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/assets/files/documentation/M645_1000S_v4.pdf
Which finder do you have on the camera? What developing tank and reel are you using?
Focal plane shutters use two curtains. In a released state you are looking at curtain 2, in a cocked state curtain 1.
Developing tank, finder, film compartment are the most likely sources especially when bright light is at a certain angle to the camera or tank.

I'm using a Waist Level view finder.

I tested the shutter both in the released state and the cocked state. Nothing abnormal that I could see.

I'm using a Paterson Super System 4 tank with the reels that came with it.

MattKing · Jun 17, 2018

It looks like an internal reflection to me.

Kino · Jun 17, 2018

Looks like a very small magazine light leak that only becomes an issue in very bright light.

Wallendo · Jun 17, 2018

Does the back of the camera close tightly? I had similar, but much more pronounced problems with a m645 I bought. The back didn't seem to close as tightly as my other M645's, and the problem was solved when I replaced the back with one from a camera whose shutter failed.

avizzini · Jun 17, 2018

MattKing said:
It looks like an internal reflection to me.

I looked around for scratched paint or exposed parts, didn't notice anything off hand. Would this most likely be in the front or in the back?

Kino said:
Looks like a very small magazine light leak that only becomes an issue in very bright light.

It does not have an interchangeable back. Could it be the film insert that's going bad? It seems to lock into place correctly and the springs seem to be good. None of the paint on the plate is scratched.

Wallendo said:
Does the back of the camera close tightly? I had similar, but much more pronounced problems with a m645 I bought. The back didn't seem to close as tightly as my other M645's, and the problem was solved when I replaced the back with one from a camera whose shutter failed.

It seems tight but, I don't have another one to compare it to. It locks in automatically and there doesn't seem to be any "play" with it, pushing on it doesn't really move it.

Kino · Jun 17, 2018

It has a door with light seals and the film wraps around rollers on the top and bottom of the insert; that is where I would guess it's getting flashed.

If you have a strip of exposures that you can place on the insert in the proper orientation, see where the bands fall OUTSIDE of the taking aperture.

Your 3rd exposure in the examples you show looks very much like where the film bends over one of the insert rollers. The light leak doesn't have to be very large in a very bright environment.

shutterfinger · Jun 17, 2018

Shutter locked open on B, no film in the magazine, magazine installed, lens removed, finder open, in total darkness shine a bright light (AA mini mag spot focused at 2 inches or equivalent LED) inside the camera while looking at the exterior of the camera. Shine the light along the edges of the mirror while looking into the viewfinder and into the film magazine area while looking at all edges of the opening for the magazine. Anything other than black is a light leak. This leak, if in the camera, will show up as a very dull yellow spot or area.
Center columns of Patterson tanks are the most common source of light leaks in development. Ensure the column is seating correctly.

MattKing · Jun 17, 2018

avizzini said:
I looked around for scratched paint or exposed parts, didn't notice anything off hand. Would this most likely be in the front or in the back?

Check the back of the lens.

Kino · Jun 17, 2018

If none of the above works, let me add one other test to the excellent advice given above:

Load a fresh roll of (preferably cheap) film as normal in subdued light but do not expose the first shot.
Take the camera outside in direct sunlight and rotate the body around for a few minutes; more or less "tumble" the body to expose all surfaces to direct light.
Do this on a couple of shots, sacrificing the frames by keeping the lens cap on. Shoot the rest of the roll as normal and develop.
If there are density bands in the blank frames, you have some sort of light leak.

paul ron · Jun 18, 2018

what you see when firing the camera with an open back and light at the lens are pin holes in the cutains.... thats what i suspect. you did mention the seals have been changed, so that says the only other leak is at the darkslide or shutter curtains.

that small streak indicates pin hole in the curtain, not the darkslide. also notice how it relates to the exposure speed? slow shutter, longer streak.

AgX · Jun 18, 2018

By using colour film you could establish whether that light comes from the front or from behind.

avizzini · Jun 18, 2018

paul ron said:
what you see when firing the camera with an open back and light at the lens are pin holes in the cutains.... thats what i suspect. you did mention the seals have been changed, so that says the only other leak is at the darkslide or shutter curtains.

that small streak indicates pin hole in the curtain, not the darkslide. also notice how it relates to the exposure speed? slow shutter, longer streak.

There is no darkslide on a Mamiya 645 1000s, the back isn't interchangeable, so it can't be that. I've examined the curtain with a flashlight in a dark room, I did not notice any holes. The curtain moves vertically, up and down, not horizontally.

As for exposure speed. I've seen this happen at 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000 and there does not appear to be any correlation with the size and the location seems to be constant. The sample imags have the shutter speed used.

avizzini · Jun 18, 2018

Kino said:
If none of the above works, let me add one other test to the excellent advice given above:

Load a fresh roll of (preferably cheap) film as normal in subdued light but do not expose the first shot.
Take the camera outside in direct sunlight and rotate the body around for a few minutes; more or less "tumble" the body to expose all surfaces to direct light.
Do this on a couple of shots, sacrificing the frames by keeping the lens cap on. Shoot the rest of the roll as normal and develop.
If there are density bands in the blank frames, you have some sort of light leak.

AgX said:
By using colour film you could establish whether that light comes from the front or from behind.

Perhaps I'll combine these two suggestions, I've not used coloured film yet. It's just hard to know whether or not it'll happen given how irregular it is. I'll try it in the most direct sun as possible I suppose.

shutterfinger · Jun 18, 2018

I bought a Sinar F1 at a area camera store years ago. When I got home with it I loaded a film holder, attached it, extended the bellows full extension, pulled the darkslide, took it out in direct sun and turned it every direction for 5 minutes. The processed sheet of film was not fogged. I then loaded some film, mounted it on a tripod, and made some exposures. Those shots had 5 to 10 pinhole images over the lens image. Light inside the bellows showed a pin hole at every fold on all 4 corners.

shutterfinger · Jun 18, 2018

If the back will close without the film insert in place light test it with the insert removed.

paul ron · Jun 18, 2018

^1+

avizzini said:
There is no darkslide on a Mamiya 645 1000s, the back isn't interchangeable, so it can't be that. I've examined the curtain with a flashlight in a dark room, I did not notice any holes. The curtain moves vertically, up and down, not horizontally.

As for exposure speed. I've seen this happen at 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000 and there does not appear to be any correlation with the size and the location seems to be constant. The sample imags have the shutter speed used.

but have you fired the shutter while looking through? lazy curtain, curtain pin holes or tear... etc. regardless of darkslide, removable backs, direction of shutter curtains; these are standard tests when diagnosing camera problems..

btw your shutter is electronically controled, perhaps its faulty?

realize i dont have your camera on my bench.

avizzini · Jun 18, 2018

paul ron said:
^1+

but have you fired the shutter while looking through? lazy curtain, curtain pin holes or tear... etc. regardless of darkslide, removable backs, direction of shutter curtains; these are standard tests when diagnosing camera problems..

btw your shutter is electronically controled, perhaps its faulty?

realize i dont have your camera on my bench.

Yes, I have looked at the shutter while firing in a darkened room with a flashlight and in a lit room. It opens and closes completely as expected, though there's only so much I can gurantee by eye alone given how fast it moves when opening and closing. I've done this at multiple aperture speeds.

I haven't noticed any general shutter issues. The exposures have been coming out as expected, the timing is within an acceptable tolerance, the green test light turns on, I've not had issues with the shutter not opening and or not closing.

I took it to the shop that did the original CLA and seal replacement, they are going to go over it again.

shutterfinger · Jun 18, 2018

avizzini said:
Yes, I have looked at the shutter while firing in a darkened room with a flashlight

Darkened room does not cut it.
Total darkness means that. After 15 minutes of letting your eyes adjust you cannot see your hand 6 inches in front of your face looking in any direction.
Now just barely being able to make out edges of furniture will work.

avizzini said:
I took it to the shop that did the original CLA and seal replacement, they are going to go over it again.

Good move.

avizzini · Jun 19, 2018

shutterfinger said:
Darkened room does not cut it.
Total darkness means that. After 15 minutes of letting your eyes adjust you cannot see your hand 6 inches in front of your face looking in any direction.
Now just barely being able to make out edges of furniture will work.

Good move.

Darkened, as in it was made dark. The same completely dark room I use to put film in the development canister.

shutterfinger · Jun 19, 2018

avizzini said:
Darkened, as in it was made dark. The same completely dark room I use to put film in the development canister.

Do you know that light will bend 90° on flat black surfaces? It will and getting the light source at the correct angle to show it is difficult especially in such tight spaces as in your camera.
You got a good exposure to the procedure for finding leaks. It takes experience to find some and others take a shotgun fix. A shotgun fix is replacing all the parts in a given area. This will also cover adding seals to compensate for wear even when no leak was apparent. You know when this approach works as the leak goes away.
I suspect your camera's leak is at the back hinge or mirror seal. I would need the camera and strip of film with the leak to identify the area. Hopefully the shop will fix it.

Mamiya 645 1000s, artifacts / bands of light on my images. Shutter issue or light leak?

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Mamiya 645 1000s, artifacts / bands of light on my images. Shutter issue or light leak?

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