Making TMax 400 Look Like Older Style Film

silvergelatin · Mar 21, 2017

So I'm overseas right now and have blasted through my big bag of Fomapan 400. Oops. My only option to buy here is TMY, so I bought a pile. How can I try to nudge the character into Foma or even Tri-X territory so there is some continuity in my total story? I know this is a terrible question, but I don't have much choice. I generally develop in Rodinal 1:50 with normal to light agitation and print somewhat hard on Ilford MG FB paper. As you may have guessed, I am not afraid of grain. Thank you!!!

Bill Burk · Mar 22, 2017

Bring a small open bulb light with you and add just a small amount of light to the shadows.

TMAX 400 has a sharp straight line down to base, while Tri-X has a slight toe which gives you some detail in the shadows when exposure is near the threshold.

So a little light in the shadows will "simulate" the same kind of character that you would get with an older film.

MattKing · Mar 22, 2017

Also, shoot an extra roll or two with some representative images. Mark those rolls clearly, because you are going to use them to experiment with less dilute Rodinal and more agitation.

silvergelatin · Mar 23, 2017

MattKing said:
Also, shoot an extra roll or two with some representative images. Mark those rolls clearly, because you are going to use them to experiment with less dilute Rodinal and more agitation.

So less dilution and more agitation is the way to go? I can't really reconstruct duplicate photos of living subjects, so the rolls will be unique.

My concern with a more straightline emulsion like TMY is blowing highlights. Is this a problem? I am a little spoiled by the insane latitude of TX and Foma combined with Rodinal.

MattKing · Mar 23, 2017

TMY has such a long straightline that it is extremely hard to blow out highlights. It has more latitude than Tri-X. Foma I am only familiar with by reputation.
I wasn't suggesting duplicate photos, just representative examples using similar lighting.
I was suggesting the changes in dilution and agitation to help you achieve that "printing somewhat hard" result - TMY is so smooth that you may very well prefer the extra contrast and grain.
Bill's suggestion about adding light is a great one. You may want to increase your exposure slightly too.

silvergelatin · Mar 23, 2017

MattKing said:
TMY has such a long straightline that it is extremely hard to blow out highlights. It has more latitude than Tri-X. Foma I am only familiar with by reputation.
I wasn't suggesting duplicate photos, just representative examples using similar lighting.
I was suggesting the changes in dilution and agitation to help you achieve that "printing somewhat hard" result - TMY is so smooth that you may very well prefer the extra contrast and grain.
Bill's suggestion about adding light is a great one. You may want to increase your exposure slightly too.

Increasing exposure is no problem. Carrying a light around isn't going to work, though. That's good to hear about the highlights. I am usually pretty generous with exposure using my normal combinations, so this new and unexpected variable made me a little nervous about overdoing it.

Kilgallb · Mar 23, 2017

I shoot TMX100 in a Leica with a yellow filter. That does the trick.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 25, 2017

Remember the old "spaghetti westerns" with Clint Eastwood. They were photographed in central Italy where the producers had found areas that looked like the American west. People joked that why didn't they just use locales in the actual American west?

klownshed · Mar 25, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Remember the old "spaghetti westerns" with Clint Eastwood. They were photographed in central Italy where the producers had found areas that looked like the American west. People joked that why didn't they just use locales in the actual American west?

For the same reasons US filmmakers fake foreign locales.

I think the films would have lost a lot of their charm had they not been made in Europe too...

Oh, and just to be pedantic, the Clint Eastwood Spaghetti westerns by Sergio Leone were filmed near Almeria in Spain.

Pat Erson · Mar 25, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Remember the old "spaghetti westerns" with Clint Eastwood. They were photographed in central Italy where the producers had found areas that looked like the American west.

Sorry to correct you but they were shot in Spain...

removed account4 · Mar 25, 2017

silvergelatin said:
So I'm overseas right now and have blasted through my big bag of Fomapan 400. Oops. My only option to buy here is TMY, so I bought a pile. How can I try to nudge the character into Foma or even Tri-X territory so there is some continuity in my total story? I know this is a terrible question, but I don't have much choice. I generally develop in Rodinal 1:50 with normal to light agitation and print somewhat hard on Ilford MG FB paper. As you may have guessed, I am not afraid of grain. Thank you!!!

hi silvergelatin

i am oblivious to curves and lines and logs but have experience shooting tmax100 and tri x .. the 4x5 and
35mm adn 120 flavor, not much experience exposing fomapan so you can
take my suggestions at face value, or for what they are worth ( barely the time it took me to type it )
i have never used rodinal or D76, but i have experience with dektol, ansco 130 & caffenol c, and those films
.. ( while i could also say a few more developers, i wouldn't waste any my efforts with them )
what i have done to convert my tab grained film to something a little more traditional is one of a handful of
things ... over expose it a little bit ( since it is 35mm you can under expose a little too, if you want to, just bracket )
caffenol c with a little dektol or ansco 130 in it does wonderful things to film, i'd suggest making a strong
brew of caffenol c ( use teaspoons/tablespoons a scale, its OK, its a forgiving developer, add extra if you
want, your film won't explode ) and add a "splash"
of dektol/ansco 130 in it .. whats a splash ? when you could measure it and it would be about 20cc +/- /L
or you can just tip the bottle of stock solution and pour a little out. years ago a cousin of mine used to drink
a "scotch splash" the splash was water and it varied a little depending on the barkeep he asked for the drink
but all in all every time it was just about the same ...
process your film ( roll film ) normally for IDK 10-11 mins .. ( you could do a test roll and modify your times
from there )
presoak in water for 1 min, knock the bubbles off agitate 1 full min and 10sec/min sheet film? continuously agitate for the whole time..
you could also just pour the developer in the tank, after presoak, knock the bubbles off, agitate 1 full min and
don't do anything for about 1/2 hour .. then come back and agitate for 1 min before you stop/wash...
this works with sheets as well as it does with rolls.
2 left ....
my next is a take on a divided developer ...
you have your print developer spiked caffenol c ... now mix some dektol or ansco 130 1:10
you will put the dektol or ansco 130 in ( after pre soak ) knock the bubbles off as usual, agitate 1 full min, and 10 seconds every min for 6 mins...
at 6 mins, pour it out and put the caffenol C in there, and continuously agitate for 4 mins. stop and fix &c

lastly take yoru 1:10 dektol or ansco 130 and develop your film in there for 10 mins 1 min 10 sec/min after that...
( 1:6 6 mins works well, as does 1:7 seven minutes )

my only real word of advice is before you develop film that means something and is important, shoot a roll or
2 and see how a new, suggested, never before used developer works in similar lighting conditions
and then do a few test rolls ..
as i mentioned i process my film regularly in these developers ( for years, not just a roll or 2 )
my methods and work was recorded in the caffenol-cookbook.com and my website ( follow link in signature ) too, if you want to see
what some of the results look like ...

have fun + have a safe trip
john

LAG · Mar 25, 2017

silvergelatin said:
So I'm overseas right now and have blasted through my big bag of Fomapan 400. Oops. My only option to buy here is TMY, so I bought a pile. How can I try to nudge the character into Foma or even Tri-X territory so there is some continuity in my total story?

I would bring back a correct negative, and I would play with prints to achieve that continuity, unless you have to have all those negatives, for some reason, with that similar aspect you're asking for, in that case I'd play with filters/lens first ... and/or I would use Foma Retro developer for those TMY.

Best of luck!

Thomas71 · Mar 25, 2017

Fomapan400 and TMAX400 are on the opposite side, so IMHO is quite impossible to get similar results.
I've used both in 120 format and I found that:
TMAX: almost grainless, very high latitude pose, a true 400 ISO in Rodinal Special or in HC110
Fomapan400: a lot of grain, you need to give at least 1 stop of more exposure (I'm quite sure that it's a 160 ISO film) and I always met difficoulties to manage the contrast (it blocks up highlight very quickly). I've got better results pushing FP4 at 200 ISO.

I would try TMAX in Rodinal 1+25 to emulate FOMA: Rodinal doesn't give the true speed of any film and it's not a finegranular developer so you can see a little bit of grain also with TMAX.

I can't understand how FOMA 400 can compete in the market; here in Italy it's only little less expensive than HP5.

Harry Stevens · Mar 25, 2017

Pat Erson said:
Sorry to correct you but they were shot in Spain...[/QUOT

klownshed said:

For the same reasons US filmmakers fake foreign locales.

I think the films would have lost a lot of their charm had they not been made in Europe too...

Oh, and just to be pedantic, the Clint Eastwood Spaghetti westerns by Sergio Leone were filmed near Almeria in Spain.

Click to expand...

They also used the studios in Rome for some interior shots and he used the USA for Monument Valley scene in Once upon a time in the west and brought back some of the red soil fom the US for a scene where Jason Robards enters a saloon and the red dust blows in behind him which was also shot in Rome.

Harry Stevens · Mar 25, 2017

He used Spain,Italy(Rome) and the USA.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 25, 2017

Pat Erson said:
Sorry to correct you but they were shot in Spain...

They were shot in several locations but mostly in central Italy. Which is why they are called spaghetti westerns and not paella westerns. In Japan they films are known as macaroni westerns.

Down Under · Mar 26, 2017

Kilgallb (#7), +100. Too simple, mate. Will be ignored by all those who enjoy complicating all things in life.

You and I are partners in crime. I figured out what you posted, 40 years ago, and I have never looked back.

So where are you on D76 1+1?

klownshed · Mar 26, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
They were shot in several locations but mostly in central Italy.

They* were shot on location in Spain. The film studio was in Cinecittà Studios, Rome so studio shots were filmed there but the location shots were in Spain.

Italy is a beautiful country with many type of geographical terrain. But One thing Italy is missing if you want to shoot a western is a desert.

I've been to some of the locations near Almeria. I can assure you I was in Spain and not Italy.

Gerald C Koch said:
Which is why they are called spaghetti westerns and not paella westerns.

They were made by Italian film production companies and the main film studio was in Rome. An awful lot of Hollywood movies are filmed on location elsewhere too.

*at least the Sergio Leone films with Clint Esstwood

removed account4 · Mar 26, 2017

sorry to be a contrarian, but
i fail to see how using rodinal or d76 will make a tabular grained film grainy.
i'm surprised no one has shuggested using tmax developer, or microdot x or xtol...

LAG · Mar 26, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Remember the old "spaghetti westerns" with Clint Eastwood. They were photographed in central Italy where the producers had found areas that looked like the American west.

Wrong!

klownshed said:
They* were shot on location in Spain. The film studio was in Cinecittà Studios, Rome so studio shots were filmed there but the location shots were in Spain.

*at least the Sergio Leone films with Clint Esstwood

Right!

Gerald C Koch said:
They were shot in several locations but mostly in central Italy.

Wrong again!

Gerald C Koch said:
Which is why they are called spaghetti westerns and not paella westerns. .

In Spain (although known as spaghetti as well), they are called "chorizo western", not paella - a not very international way (but much better in my view) -.

The name didn't come from the country food for the food itself, but to give a definition of contempt for the mixture of several things, - ingredients - (producers, countries, companies, locations, actors ... low cost blah, blah, blah)

As for the "wrong" answers above: Anyone can have a look at the final credits of any films to be sure of "where".

Best!

LAG · Mar 26, 2017

jnanian said:
sorry to be a contrarian, but
i fail to see how using rodinal or d76 will make a tabular grained film grainy

Excuse me John

Grain (whatever the shape & number of the silver group), is the middle name of Rodinal (as you already know)

Best!

removed account4 · Mar 26, 2017

LOL i wouldn't know, never been part of the church
and IMUO it would take more than just grain that would make it look like foma ..

Gerald C Koch · Mar 26, 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_Western

" ... filming locations used were in central and southern Italy, such as the parks of Valle del Treja (between Rome and Viterbo), the area of Camposecco (next to Camerata Nuova, characterized by a karst topography), the hills around Castelluccio, the area around the Gran Sasso mountain, and the Tivoli's quarries and Sardinia." So everybody is right.

But all of these posts miss my original point. Which was trying to make something look like something else! There's nothing like APUG to make you wish you had never broached a subject. Veering from the topic seems to be endemic. JEEZ

LAG · Mar 26, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
...

Excuse me Gerald

Since you quoted that, let me add what's before your three first dots (" ...)

"Many of the stories take place in the semiarid landscapes of the American Southwest and Northern Mexico, so a popular setting was the Tabernas Desert in the Province of Almería in southeastern Spain, at the studios of Texas Hollywood, Mini Hollywood, and Western Leone. Other (...)"

What is fair, first things first!

Anyway, that (free & wiki) article (edited 14 days ago) forgets to mention other Spanish places - such as Huesca, Burgos and Madrid ... - used more often that those in Central Italy.

And not a word about "Chorizo"!!!

Happy hunting sheriff!

Best!

Gerald C Koch · Mar 26, 2017

LAG said:
Excuse me Gerald

Since you quoted that, let me add what's before your three first dots (" ...)

"Many of the stories take place in the semiarid landscapes of the American Southwest and Northern Mexico, so a popular setting was the Tabernas Desert in the Province of Almería in southeastern Spain, at the studios of Texas Hollywood, Mini Hollywood, and Western Leone. Other (...)"

What is fair, first things first!

Anyway, that (free & wiki) article (edited 14 days ago) forgets to mention other Spanish places - such as Huesca, Burgos and Madrid ... - used more often that those in Central Italy.

And not a word about "Chorizo"!!!

Happy hunting sheriff!

Best!

Yes, everyone is right. I wonder if the one made in Israel would be a matzo ball western.

Making TMax 400 Look Like Older Style Film

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