Making big prints, how is it done? Developing, etc.

hammy · Dec 29, 2006

On prints 16x20'' and bigger, how are they developed, stopped and fixed? Is it just like smaller prints, in trays? How do you manage with that size paper?

I've noticed the prices of large trays are pretty steep, has anyone made any trays themself?

Robert Hall · Dec 29, 2006

Just the same, they just cost more.

Do a search for trays on the forums here. Many try trays from the home depot or places like that. But, yes, they get expensive as they get large.

srs5694 · Dec 29, 2006

Color print processing drums might be appealing for large sizes, but I'm not sure how large those are made. I think I've seen them advertised for processing 16x20 prints, though. Using drums would have the advantage of requiring relatively little in the way of solution volume and space.

Another option I've heard of people using is long thin containers -- as wide as the paper is wide but just a few inches deep and long. Curve the paper into a "U" shape (seen edge-on) and roll it back and forth in the container. Some sort of cover or dowel would help you keep the part of the paper in the tray immersed. As with drums, this has the advantage of minimizing solution volume and tabletop (or floortop) space. For really big prints, it would require two or more people, though.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Dec 29, 2006

I got a stack of 16x20" paper with my enlarger, probably 150-200 sheets in partly used boxes if the list I made serves me, and so far the limiting factor has just been getting the trays. Chemicals are the same, there's just more, and it's a little more delicate work I'd presume. Just like normal developing, but bigger and grander.
I've heard litter boxes suggested for developing trays, but never really looked into it. May be worth a shot, as I've seen trays in that size for anywhere from $16-$60AUS so far.

DrPablo · Dec 29, 2006

If it helps I just developed my firstr 11x14s using only 8x10 trays. I put on some gloves and sloshed the print through the solutions, even if just part at a time, until it was developed / stopped / fixed.

Not sure how many prints over 16x20 you're planning on making, but if it's a rare event you might not need to buy a whole new set of big trays.

Andy K · Dec 29, 2006

I use cat litter trays for 16x20. They are much cheaper than photography specific trays.
I also found that rather than set up three or four trays and attempt moving a large wet print between them, it was easier to use a single tray and a couple of large jugs and change the chemicals instead.
For example, pour in developer, place print in developer, develop, empty developer into jug, pour in stop, empty stop into jug, pour in fixer... This has the added advantage that I am less likely to crease or damage the print as I handle it.

richard ide · Dec 29, 2006

When I lived in an apartment, I used to develop large prints in the shower by taping the print to the wall and applying developer and fix with a sponge. Washing was done with the shower. I only did RC paper this way and it worked very well.

Roger Hicks · Dec 29, 2006

hammy said:
On prints 16x20'' and bigger, how are they developed, stopped and fixed? Is it just like smaller prints, in trays? How do you manage with that size paper?

I've noticed the prices of large trays are pretty steep, has anyone made any trays themself?

Up to about 20x24, trays are easier. After that, it gets desperate. Two tricks I have used are a framework of 2x4's laid on the floor with heavy polythene over them, applying chemistry with a sponge, and 'see-sawing' through either big trays or two pieces of guttering (with end caps and clips to stop them rolling) as 'trays'.

Holding the two ends of the paper, see-saw it through the chemistry. Allow about 2-4 inches (5-10 cm) each end, outside the image area, as hand-grips. It's not easy -- the paper curls on itself -- which is why big trays are easier than guttering troughs, but on pages 106/107 of Darkroom Basics (Roger Hicks & Frances Schultz, ISBN 1-84340-048-0) there are illustrations of all these techniques.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

hammy · Dec 29, 2006

Wow. Interesting techniques.

With sponging, what about agitation? Must be pretty hard to keep all parts of the paper equally exposed to the chemicals?

Pinholemaster · Dec 29, 2006

Andy K - you are brilliant! Cat litter trays. Who'd a thunk? Wow.

Jim Jones · Dec 29, 2006

hammy said:
Wow. Interesting techniques.

With sponging, what about agitation? Must be pretty hard to keep all parts of the paper equally exposed to the chemicals?

If the paper receives minimum exposure so it requires several minutes development, the development will be even enough. Timing of stop bath and fixer is less critical. A friend used Roger's idea of a plastic lined 2x4 frame for prints up to 4x6 feet. Developer was applied with a swab. Stop bath was added to the developer to halt development. When that mess was cleaned up, fixer could be swabbed on, and washing done the same way.

avandesande · Dec 29, 2006

The 'traditional' way is to roll the paper up and put it in a trough of developer, continually rolling and unrolling it. I don't know if this is any easier or better than any of the other suggestions here.

Roger Hicks · Dec 29, 2006

avandesande said:
The 'traditional' way is to roll the paper up and put it in a trough of developer, continually rolling and unrolling it. I don't know if this is any easier or better than any of the other suggestions here.

In my experience -- and I've tried 'em all -- it's harder and more likely to lead to stress marks/scratches. But that may simply be lack of practice on my part.

Cheers,

R.

DeBone 75 · Dec 29, 2006

For prints 16x20 and 20x24 I use wall paper trays. Then do the roll thing. They cost about $4.00 a piece. To empty once done I use a cheap siphon pump. Easier than trying to pick up and poor.

Dave Krueger · Dec 29, 2006

For 16x20s, I use a single tray and pour the chemicals in and out leaving the print in the tray the entire time. I use gallon size wide mouth bottles facilitating a fast return of the chemicals to the bottle since no funnel is necessary. Not sure if this would be possible with 20x24s since the larger tray would start to get too unwieldy to lift it and pour the chemicals back in the bottle. Not sure, though, since I've never gone bigger than 16x20.

It helps to have fairly rigid trays. I think mine are Patterson.

Guillaume Zuili · Dec 29, 2006

avandesande said:
The 'traditional' way is to roll the paper up and put it in a trough of developer, continually rolling and unrolling it. I don't know if this is any easier or better than any of the other suggestions here.

I have always seen it made this way. "Gutter" trays make space managable.
My printer in Paris was able to do 5 or 6 per day. Rolling isn't really the issue.
To get a good wash is critical and this is where accident can happen as you change baths many times( breaking the emulsion etc ). At last you need a lot of drying space to lay flat square meter prints.

16x20 is definitely the easiest large print in term of manipulation and the little difference of size in 20x24 doesn't justify the big change of manipulation, bigger trays and risk of emulsion damage. At least for me.

Best,
G.

srs5694 · Dec 29, 2006

Another thought (not based on experience, I'm just thinking out loud): What about a custom-built Nova-style vertical slot processor? I've heard of people custom-building such things in smaller sizes, so I'm sure it'd be possible to do for bigger sizes. It'd probably only be worthwhile if you do a lot of large prints, but if you do that, such a thing would save space, would be easy to drain (if you put spigots in it), and I'd imagine it would be easy to use. It'd probably require more chemistry than some of the alternatives that have been discussed in this thread, though.

Guillaume Zuili · Dec 29, 2006

srs5694 said:
Another thought (not based on experience, I'm just thinking out loud): What about a custom-built Nova-style vertical slot processor? I've heard of people custom-building such things in smaller sizes, so I'm sure it'd be possible to do for bigger sizes. It'd probably only be worthwhile if you do a lot of large prints, but if you do that, such a thing would save space, would be easy to drain (if you put spigots in it), and I'd imagine it would be easy to use. It'd probably require more chemistry than some of the alternatives that have been discussed in this thread, though.

1 meter print vertical, dealing first with the agitation and moving the print from one slot to the other would be a nightmare on a ... ladder !
Roll is easier and these special trays are not that big.

Ole · Dec 29, 2006

srs5694 said:
Another thought (not based on experience, I'm just thinking out loud): What about a custom-built Nova-style vertical slot processor?

Hydrostatic pressure. Building it strong enough to withstand an extra 0.1 bar pressure with 1 meter depth makes for a very heavy unit. Or just let it bulge, and quadruple the chemistry requirements?

Not to mention that you would also need to affiv lead weights to the bottom of an already heavy sheet of paper just to be able to get in down into the solutions...

pgomena · Dec 29, 2006

I use polyethylene restaurant dish tubs for 11x14", have not investigated whether larger sizes are available. Relatively cheap, nice and deep. Home Depot sells polyethylene mixing tubs for mixing small batches of concrete in the building materials section. I believe there are two sizes, both large enough for 16x20 and very cheap.

Peter Gomena

langedp · Dec 30, 2006

Jobo drums for paper up to 20x24. Anything larger must use the methods listed above.

photographs42 · Dec 30, 2006

I have 16x20 trays and 20x24 trays but for really large prints I use a tube. 16x20 and 20x24 tubes are fairly common and if you dont have room for trays, the tube is a good alternative. It uses less liquid but is more of a hassle because you have to rinse and dry it between prints. A motorized roller base is fairly inexpensive or you can roll it back and forth on a counter. While more trouble than trays, a tube is WAY easier than a trough.

My big prints are done in a tube. My first couple of tubes were made from plastic sewer pipe. The first one was a 6 pipe 44 long. A popular size print for me is 14x36 and this tube worked very well for that. I made it 44 long because I use Ilford MGFB paper which comes in rolls 42x100. Later I made an 8 tube to print 24x30 and 24x36 prints. These tubes arent light tight so I use them in a sink with safe lights. Thanks to a friend of mine, I now have a Kodak tube from an old processor that dous up to 30x40 prints.

Jerome

Making big prints, how is it done? Developing, etc.

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