Making a Dye Transfer Matrix film

ben-s · Jul 9, 2007

Would it be possible to find a company who uses the film itself, and group buy a single roll through them?
Maybe they could even slice it into subrolls for a fee?

Photo Engineer · Jul 9, 2007

Several people are working on several solutions to this one.

PE

z-man · Jul 9, 2007

CAN'T GET UNCORUPTED PDF IN MY BLDNG

Photo Engineer said:
Jim Browning has posted at his web site all of the sources for every product he uses in the formula posted above. Please read his article carefully and look at the pictures. Everything is there that you need.

PE

I AND EVERYONE IN MY BLDNG HAS TROUBLE RE PDF DOWNLOADS-THAT INCLUDES GETTING AN UNCORUPTED COPY OF ADOBE READER

JPEGS COME THRU FINE-VERIZON AND ALL ISPS HAVE NO SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM SO I CAN'T READ THE ARTICLE-BLDNG WIRE IS THE LIKELY SUSPECT

I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MOVE FOR 1 1/2 YRS BECAUSE OF VARIOUS ISSUES THAT MNGMNT WON'T ADDRESS RE NON SUPPLY OF SERVICES TO TENNANTS

LIFE IN THE BIG CITY IS LIKE THAT

MY COURT CASE WITH BLDNG MNGMNT IS UP FOR ANOTHER APPEARANCE BEFORE THE JUDGE ON JULY 16-EVERYBODY PLEASE WISH ME LUCK SO I CAN GET OUT OF MY LEASE AND MOVE

VAYA CON DIOS

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2007

I wish I could convert it to a document for you that you could download. I can't do that though. I don't have the software.

The pictures and graphs are plentiful and it is filled with information. Jim did post the source of support and problems associated with it above.

I wish you the best.

PE

Steve Smith · Jul 10, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
It is 7 mil (0.007") Estar for all practical purposes.

One side is subbed to accept aqueous coatings.

PE

At work, we screen print solvent based conductive inks and aqueous based UV cure inks onto polyester (and polycarbonate) sheets which have a print receptive coating.
Would you know if it is likely that these coatings would also aid the adhesion of an emulsion? It seems likely to me but I don't have any real basis for thinking this.

The materials we use are usually 5mil thick from Autotype and General Electric. If anyone wants some small pieces (A4/Letter size) to experiment with, I can post some.

Steve

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2007

Steve Smith said:
At work, we screen print solvent based conductive inks and aqueous based UV cure inks onto polyester (and polycarbonate) sheets which have a print receptive coating.
Would you know if it is likely that these coatings would also aid the adhesion of an emulsion? It seems likely to me but I don't have any real basis for thinking this.

The materials we use are usually 5mil thick from Autotype and General Electric. If anyone wants some small pieces (A4/Letter size) to experiment with, I can post some.

Steve

Steve;

They will work if you can apply aqueous coatings, but the problem is that they must be photo inactive. Some subbings will fog emulsions.

Also, 5 mil will preclude use in LF and ULF applications. The material can buckle in the holder, and the emulsion will not be at the correct focal plane by up to 2 mil depending on the way the frame works.

PE

z-man · Jul 11, 2007

here comes dazed and confused again

Photo Engineer said:
Yes, there is a way to sub some types of transparent support, but not Estar types. They are much harder to sub and I have no formulas for their subbing. Kodak used electron bombardment.

Doing the subbing in a uniform manner with high quality is going to be difficult. Each step reduces the yield. I have published a subbing for acetate here somewhere. If I run across it I'll do it again.

PE

if you can find the sub formula i will do somthing nice with:

a 25 sht pad of 9x12 cellulose acetate-$12 american at most art supply vendors

4mil poly sheets --coated both sides with gelatine ---20"x26 " --are $1.64 ea for a 1/2 doz order at my favorite supply house--- am i missing something by assuming that i can use this to either over coat with emulsion, or; sensitize the exsisting gel coat---dont know if this is same stuff i used 20 yrs but i am going to try this particular material since the coat on other side will allow it to be self laminatd to any support i chose

there is a material with trademarked name: "dura-lar" this is sold as suitable for color seps-i suspect it is polyestar

comes in 3, 5, 7, 10mil 10mil is $50 for a 40" by 12ft roll

they sell the both side gel coated poly for a small differnce in price from the uncoated-approx $24 for coated equiv area to $17 uncoated

i must be missing something

i don't understand

as usual

z

vaya con dios

Steve Smith · Jul 11, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
They will work if you can apply aqueous coatings, but the problem is that they must be photo inactive. Some subbings will fog emulsions.

Some of our materials have a treatment to make them ink receptive rather than a coating. I assume it is a very mild surface texturing.

We have 7mil material too but do not use it as much as 5mil.

One day I may do some coating experiments. Is there an easy way to make up a non-working emulsion to experiment with? i.e. something with the same viscosity and adhesion properties but easier to make than a full emulsion?

Steve.

ben-s · Jul 11, 2007

Steve Smith said:
One day I may do some coating experiments. Is there an easy way to make up a non-working emulsion to experiment with? i.e. something with the same viscosity and adhesion properties but easier to make than a full emulsion?

This sounds interesting.
You should be able to make a dummy emulsion with gelatine, water, dye and hardener.
PE would be able to enlighten us further, I think, as he uses a dummy emulsion to test for coating quality.

Photo Engineer · Jul 11, 2007

Formula for Acetate sub:

Methanol 2250 cc
Acetic Acid 50 cc.
Stock solution 1700 cc
Acetone 7400 cc
Fomalin 25 cc

Stock Solution:

Gelatin 450 g
DW 540 cc
Acetic Acid 540 cc
3500 cc methanol
Dissolve all ingredients then add 3750 cc methanol.

This formula is very flammable and the fumes are very toxic. BEWARE. I take no responsibility for the use of this formula.

I have posted another formula here IIRC.

PE

rmazzullo · Jul 11, 2007

PE,

Do you know if the acetic acid is glacial acetic acid? What should the solution strength of the acetic acid be?

Thanks,

Bob M.

Photo Engineer · Jul 11, 2007

Bob;

I'm quoting a formula as printed. Thats all I know. I prefer to buy subbed film and let others worry about subbing it for me. Sorry.

PE

z-man · Jul 12, 2007

up in smoke???no way joselita

Photo Engineer said:
Formula for Acetate sub:

Methanol 2250 cc
Acetic Acid 50 cc.
Stock solution 1700 cc
Acetone 7400 cc
Fomalin 25 cc

Stock Solution:

Gelatin 450 g
DW 540 cc
Acetic Acid 540 cc
3500 cc methanol
Dissolve all ingredients then add 3750 cc methanol.

This formula is very flammable and the fumes are very toxic. BEWARE. I take no responsibility for the use of this formula.

I have posted another formula here IIRC.

PE

pe -thanx but i think i will stick to ready rolled in this case-guess that is why you can get gel coated polyestar now

what about the gelatine coated poly sold by art supply?-you mentioned possible that stuf in subings would fog lite sensative overcoat-the price is low enuf for recon by dong but i am curios now esp since you said it was so difficult to sub estars??---then there is the light pipe problema---

yes there is a good reason i want to laminate it to a support like glass or lexan or aluminum

vaya con dios

Photo Engineer · Jul 12, 2007

There is a reflective polymer support with subbing that is called YUPO. I have coated my emulsions on it with no problem with fog or other changes, but it is not a very robust support in terms of adhesion. I have not worked out the hardening situation due to other priorities.

PE

Bill Mitchell · Jul 12, 2007

After 55 years my framed and hung in well-lighted rooms (no direct sunlight) Dye Transfers are showing just a trace of faded skintones. Boxed prints continue to appear perfect, as do Kodachrome prints from Kodak.
I gave up Dye Transfer years ago for masked Cibachrome (from Kodachromes), then switched to Ektaflex (from Ektra 25 and 1000 negatives), now after several years shooting only B&W (Ilford Gallery and Agfa Portriga Rapid), I've gone digital. Anything I could do with Dye Transfer I can do better and easier with PhotoShop and inkjet.

Photo Engineer · Jul 12, 2007

Bill Mitchell said:
After 55 years my framed and hung in well-lighted rooms (no direct sunlight) Dye Transfers are showing just a trace of faded skintones. Boxed prints continue to appear perfect, as do Kodachrome prints from Kodak.

Anything I could do with Dye Transfer I can do better and easier with PhotoShop and inkjet.

I'll bet the digital prints won't last 55 years though.

The new Endura and CA papers might last even longer.

PE

z-man · Jul 12, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
I'll bet the digital prints won't last 55 years though.

The new Endura and CA papers might last even longer.

PE

pe

bought into the epson "ultrachrome" pigment ink and support system 1 1/2 yrs ago because of the 95+yr rating-kept it cause it is only ink jet i can stand the looks of at least as far as putting my name on the delivered art

i agree that you can instantly get something like a dye transfer from the desktop

just like you can get something like baked goods out of a microwave cake mix box

it all depends on what your expectations are and what you and/or your clients will settle for

vaya con dios

rmazzullo · Jul 13, 2007

Bill Mitchell said:
After 55 years my framed and hung in well-lighted rooms (no direct sunlight) Dye Transfers are showing just a trace of faded skintones. Boxed prints continue to appear perfect, as do Kodachrome prints from Kodak.
I gave up Dye Transfer years ago for masked Cibachrome (from Kodachromes), then switched to Ektaflex (from Ektra 25 and 1000 negatives), now after several years shooting only B&W (Ilford Gallery and Agfa Portriga Rapid), I've gone digital. Anything I could do with Dye Transfer I can do better and easier with PhotoShop and inkjet.

Hello Bill,

When you get a moment, can you please post a sample of what you are referring to? Specifically, a comparison of a portion of a dye transfer print next to that same section of the same photo (if possible) printed via an inkjet printer? Which inkjet printer has the capability of duplicating the quality of dye transfer?

Thanks,

Bob M.

Photo Engineer · Jul 13, 2007

z-man said:
pe

bought into the epson "ultrachrome" pigment ink and support system 1 1/2 yrs ago because of the 95+yr rating-kept it cause it is only ink jet i can stand the looks of at least as far as putting my name on the delivered art

i agree that you can instantly get something like a dye transfer from the desktop

just like you can get something like baked goods out of a microwave cake mix box

it all depends on what your expectations are and what you and/or your clients will settle for

vaya con dios

A major problem for me with pigment prints is the odd looking surface with a relief image that resembles a Kodachrome print. I don't like that.

In addition, it is being shown that all prints done by digital printers suffer from image smear over time. This is due to the fact that the inks and pigments are quite mobile and low in molecular weight.

Wilhelm institute knows this but has not made a big deal of it, but eventually a digital print begins to smear just like a tattoo. This was presented in detail at a recent ICIS short course that I took.

PE

z-man · Jul 13, 2007

same as dot gain on press maybe???

Photo Engineer said:
A major problem for me with pigment prints is the odd looking surface with a relief image that resembles a Kodachrome print. I don't like that.

In addition, it is being shown that all prints done by digital printers suffer from image smear over time. This is due to the fact that the inks and pigments are quite mobile and low in molecular weight.

Wilhelm institute knows this but has not made a big deal of it, but eventually a digital print begins to smear just like a tattoo. This was presented in detail at a recent ICIS short course that I took.

PE

thanx for heads up-sounds like a long time period version of dot gain-or is it something else?

i don't allways use ultrachrome supports-the 'dot gain effect'-different absorbtion characterstics-of different supports can be very useful for image purposes
and can also address the 2 dimensional ink layer that looks like tanning dev gelatine sometimes

if you can sacrifice highlights somewhat you adjust to print for total coverage by ink-i do that with a lot of images and/or print bw as 4/c for same reason and/or for artistic effect

the fact that the ink jet supports are manufactured with comparatively thick absorbtive layer to allow fast drying of dye inks is what i am concerned about

is the smearing just the ink, just the support or both-do those high ticket iris prints have the same problems?

how about 'giciclee's'?? is this all going to lead to a "bluebeard" effect?

ay de mi! ay senyor!

vaya con dios

Photo Engineer · Jul 13, 2007

No hablo espanol, pero yo deso.

Digital prints need inks that are low in molecular weight to function. These inks are in water. With time and humidity, the image spreads. See the Wilhelm Institute page for samples.

PE

Neanderman · Jul 13, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Digital prints need inks that are low in molecular weight to function. These inks are in water. With time and humidity, the image spreads. See the Wilhelm Institute page for samples.PE

To get around this, I assume you would have to change to a dye that could be mordanted, correct? Which would mean either a different paper or some other form of pre- or post-treatment to the paper or printed image. And, based upon the problems that the dye-transfer folks have related in their Yahoo group, the best mordants are heavy metals, which presents a whole new environmental nightmare.

Photo Engineer · Jul 13, 2007

The dyes are mordanted in digital prints, but apparently not well enough.

Dye transfer paper contained Thorium salts, as is well known in the field. So, yes, you are essentially correct, heavy metals were used to stabilize DT prints. Later versions of dye transfer type prints used anionic dyes and cationic mordants. The Ektaflex PCT family were examples of that, but later work included some metal salts.

PE

Bill Mitchell · Jul 13, 2007

There is a reason that the Dye Transfer process is called that -- it uses/used Azo dyes which, while relatively stable, aren't in the same longevity league as mineral based pigments, such as those used in oil paints. I believe the process prior to Dye Transfer (and washoff relief) was tricolor carbon printing, which should be more archival.
Do printers use dye or pigment based ink for magazines, newspapers, etc? Do they fade because of the crappy paper, or because of the inks?

Bill Mitchell · Jul 13, 2007

rmazzullo said:
Hello Bill,

When you get a moment, can you please post a sample of what you are referring to? Specifically, a comparison of a portion of a dye transfer print next to that same section of the same photo (if possible) printed via an inkjet printer? Which inkjet printer has the capability of duplicating the quality of dye transfer?

Thanks,

Bob M.

No Bob, actually I can't (I haven't done Dyes for over 30 years).
In fact, I'm not even sure what you mean by "the quality" of dye transfer. Their yellows suck, the margins aren't necessarily very sharp, and without extensive contrast and highlight masking even Ansco Printon looked better at the time (at least until it faded into oblivian in 6 months).

Making a Dye Transfer Matrix film

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