Makeshift Rodinal: Drano?

Stephanie Brim · Mar 20, 2006

Has anyone used Drano when making a Rodinal clone? Just curious. I'm off work today and decided to try mixing some off-the-wall developers. I'm doing Caffenol, so I thought perhaps mixing up some homebrew Rodinal would also be an interesting experience.

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 20, 2006

Stephanie, you can use Red Devil Lye (from the supermarket). Red Devil Lye is sodium hydroxide (and sodium or potassium hydroxide is what you want for Rodinal clone recipes).

gainer · Mar 20, 2006

Drano has other things in it besides caustic soda. I suspect the contents change from time to time as well. The solid Drano I remember has metal particles to make it fizz to dislodge solid "stuff". Red Devil lye, although they try to keep you from buying it, is what my grandmother used to make soap, and there are soap-making hobbyists who still do. (Just because I'm paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not out to get me.)

Stephanie Brim · Mar 20, 2006

Red Devil has recently stopped making lye, IIRC. I have to either find another local supplier or ship it in...and haz-mat charges are no fun.

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 20, 2006

Looks like it will be difficult to avoid paying a Hazmat fee for sodium or potassium hydroxide. Take a look at this website for sources:

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/coldprocesssoapmaking/a/lyesources.htm

Of course, it is possible to make "lye water" (a potassium hydroxide solution) by leaching wood ashes with water.

srs5694 · Mar 20, 2006

Are you sure it's no longer being made? I know it's hard to find in some areas, apparently because it can be used in making methamphetamine. The last I checked, in Rhode Island and Massachusetts most grocery and hardware stores don't carry it, but a few did. Meth is more of a problem west of the Mississippi River than east of it, so I can certainly believe that you'd have problems finding pure lye in stores in Iowa.

If you can't find Red Devil lye, you could try mail ordering. The Chemistry Store has sodium hydroxide for $10.00 for a 2-pound order and potassium hydroxide for the same price. If I'm reading their Web site correctly, hazmat charges only apply if you order 25 pounds or more, although you do have to fill out a special form to order these products. Note that TCS tacks on a per-order handling fee, which raises the shipping costs; it's best to wait and buy as much from them as you think you might need. Summer Bee Meadow has sodium hydroxide for $8.99 for 35 ounces (2.19 pounds) and potassium hydroxide for $9.89 for 2 pounds. Like TCS, they require you to submit a form before ordering, but I don't believe there are hazmat fees per se. (They simply won't ship large quantities of these products in a single order.) They also sell protective gear -- gloves and goggles. If you don't already have them, you might as well buy them with your hydroxide. I bought some potassium hydroxide from SBM a while ago. As I recall, the form is basically a CYA waiver sort of thing, saying you're over 18, you know the stuff is potentially dangerous, and you accept responsibility for its proper use. IIRC, I was able to submit it as a Web form, so it's not a big hassle.

FWIW, both TCS and SBM cater mostly to hobbyist soap makers, although TCS has a wider range of chemistry. I've bought from both in the past, although I've not bought hydroxides from TCS.

tpersin · Mar 20, 2006

try aspirin

http://www.f295.org/Pinholeforum/forum/Blah.pl?b-lab/m-1132019056/

avandesande · Mar 20, 2006

Home depot sells a 'professional drain cleaner' that is 50% NaOH. It is safer to handle the liquid anyway.

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 20, 2006

tpersin said:
try aspirin

http://www.f295.org/Pinholeforum/forum/Blah.pl?b-lab/m-1132019056/

Hey tpersin, aspirin won't work!

Looks like you got acetaminophen and aspirin confused (there are considerable differences between them chemically).

If you use acetaminophen as the source of the reducing agent, you still need to react it with lye (i.e., either sodium or potassium hydroxide).

Stephanie Brim · Mar 20, 2006

Yep, I'll be making Tylodinal.

I'm going to try Shopper's later today...if they don't have any (and I'm pretty sure they won't), I'm going to just buckle and order some along with some sodium sulfite and a scale.

matt miller · Mar 20, 2006

srs5694 said:
Meth is more of a problem west of the Mississippi River than east of it, so I can certainly believe that you'd have problems finding pure lye in stores in Iowa.

Meth is a huge problem in Iowa. In fact, it might be worse here, per capita, than anywhere. Sudafed is now behind the counter because of it. They check your id and record your name each time you purchase it. It wouldn't surprise me it Red Devil Lye is outlawed here too.

I bought a pound of sodium hydroxide from Artcraft last year, and paid no extra hazmat shipping charges that I recall.

Stephanie Brim · Mar 20, 2006

Yup. My uncle (the cop) and I talked about it when he was here this weekend. If you buy too much of the things it takes to make meth (Sudafed, lye, lithium batteries, etc) you're watched. It's just monitoring by how often your name appears on the lists. I'm sure that once I start printing (end of April to early May) I'm going to have my name on the list quite often. Good thing none of my cameras take batteries.

glbeas · Mar 20, 2006

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a desperate last resort can't you heat dry sodium carbonate to drive off the CO2 to get NaO which can be carefully reacted with water to make NaOH? I know I've read this in my old chemistry book a long long time ago. I don't know what temperature you would need to get this or how long to heat it but it sounds simple enough and doable for anyone with a bit of common sense.

htmlguru4242 · Mar 20, 2006

glbeas, that sounds a bit more complicated than it's worth ... you could just extract it from wood ash ...

glbeas · Mar 20, 2006

Yes but the purity and composition of that lye would be problematic. I'd bet the process is easier to do than to describe. Just remember the NaO goes in the water, not the other way around.

gainer · Mar 20, 2006

Let us not forget the ancient method of making caustic soda from soda ash and slaked lime. Mix them in some water to precipitate calcium carbonate (limestone) leaving sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) in solution. 106 grams of anhydrous or 124 grams of monohydrated sodium carbonate react with 74 grams of calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) or 72 grams of calcium oxide (burnt lime) to make 80 grams of sodium hydroxide.

It's pretty hard to imagine slaked or burnt lime not being available at garden supply stores, or sodium carbonate not being available at swimming pool suppliers.

df cardwell · Mar 20, 2006

OR you could just buy the Rodinal ..... :confused:

Stephanie Brim · Mar 20, 2006

Going to be cheaper for me this way. I can't get Rodinal anywhere close to where I am. I still have an almost full 500ml bottle...but I'm going to go through that quickly when I start using my Tri-X and pushing it to speeds unimaginable.

jim appleyard · Mar 20, 2006

Stephanie Brim said:
Going to be cheaper for me this way. I can't get Rodinal anywhere close to where I am. I still have an almost full 500ml bottle...but I'm going to go through that quickly when I start using my Tri-X and pushing it to speeds unimaginable.

Wait a minute, Stephanie. You say cheaper this way? You have to order the p-aminophenol hcl and pot. metabisulfite from someone like Formulary to be the reducing agent and preservative in your homebrew "Rodinal". You could just order the whole "Rodinal" kit from the Formulary. IIRC, it's not too expensive.

Stephanie Brim · Mar 20, 2006

I'll be making Tylodinal and just using store-bought acetominophen tablets...so that cuts some cost right there. I actually calculated the cost for things from TCS:

2 pounds of sodium hydroxide: $10
2 pounds of sodium sulfite: $6
100 acetominophen tablets: $2

Total cost is around $18 plus shipping for the lot, which is what I paid for the bottle of Rodinal that I have from J&C. Using the recipe here.

derevaun · Mar 21, 2006

I found a 29% NaOH liquid drain cleaner at Ace Hardware: Roebic Professional Strength in the gray bottle. It's also abundant at Home Depot and Lowes. It may or may not contain other stuff, but it worked just fine in my first try at Donald's Parodinal recipe. I used sodium metabisulfite from a wine store because nobody, not even pool supply stores, has sodium sulfite in this town. Pure sodium hydroxide, which is also used for making biodiesel, is similarly hard to find.

IMHO, and I take no responsibility for others' opinions about this other than to acknowledge them, any proportions close to the ones you'll find in recipes will make a developer that works on the first try and delivers all the fun aspects of devving film with under-the-sink stuff. OTOH, it'd take untold hours of toiling and trying to deliver the ironclad predictability of the commercial Rodinal or any other tested-and-true developer. So if you're looking for the former, you'll get a lot more of it than the latter. And you might get a bunch of pill crud and drainpipe lube all over your negatives. I haven't noticed them on my 110 and Minox negatives, but I don't look very hard for them. Have fun!

df cardwell · Mar 21, 2006

If anybody here would rather just BUY Rodinal, try 'Advantage Imaging', a professional stockhouse in Washigton.

1-866-303-0990

.

Gerald Koch · Mar 21, 2006

glbeas said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a desperate last resort can't you heat dry sodium carbonate to drive off the CO2 to get NaO which can be carefully reacted with water to make NaOH? I know I've read this in my old chemistry book a long long time ago. I don't know what temperature you would need to get this or how long to heat it but it sounds simple enough and doable for anyone with a bit of common sense.

You would have to heat the sodium carbonate to somewhere above its melting point 850 C. I don't think that anyone would want to do this.

Stephanie Brim · Mar 21, 2006

df cardwell said:
If anybody here would rather just BUY Rodinal, try 'Advantage Imaging', a professional stockhouse in Washigton.

1-866-303-0990

.

Just buying things is no fun...you don't get to play with chemicals if you buy things pre-mixed.

df cardwell · Mar 21, 2006

How true.

Makeshift Rodinal: Drano?

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