Make me into a pyromaniac

All,
Well it seems as if some promises aren't to be fulfilled anytime soon (rodinal is coming back...), so life moves on. The internet (and apug) is filled with the hymn-like praises of Pyro - which Im going to use to replace my beloved Rodinal.
So, where to start ? What to get, what to try ? The film I use is either Fomapan 100 when its in stock, or FP4+. I also got my hands on one of the Efke PL25 boxes, so that too. I do tray development for the time being.

Thanks !

I've had good luck with WD2D+ from Photographers Formulary and PMK homebrew. I've found that it takes awhile to zero in on an EI and dev times with pyro, but once you get that down, you're good to go.

I haven't tried Sandy King's Pyrocat HD, although lots of folks like that dev. It's on my list if I EVER get rid of my PMK stock. PMK is a fine dev, but the 1 liter supply last forever!

I'd also like to try Jay's 510, but he comes up with new devs faster than I can shoot film. He's the Steven King of darkroom formulas )

I would recommend working with Pyrocat HD and a formulation that has been used by thousands and well proven. Recommended reading on the subject of pyro developers is provided within the confines of the excellently articulated article on the subject by Sandy King in the document at the bottom section of unblinkingeye.com

I have been using it for several years and it is excellent, economical to use, easy to mix and highly versatile. Plus we have the well respected formulator among us should you have any questions.

Cheers!

When I first decided to get into Pyro developers I thought I would try a few and stick to the one I liked best. The first one I tried was Pyrocat-HD and it worked so well for me I never bothered trying any others. There's a wealth of info on it at unblinkingeye.com

I use pyrocat hd. I used to use PMK which was ok till I tried pyrocat hd. I'm sure the bottles of PMK I have will be a lifetime supply as they will be just as full as they are now when I die.

All,
Thanks for all the help....Im going to wander over to unblinkingeye shortly....But it seems as if the general opinion goes for pyrocat hd., so perhaps a bottle is in order..

Thanks again,
Steve

Steve,

Be sure to use nitrile gloves and breath through a protective mask.

John Powers

I like PMK for 6x6 and sometimes other medium format, and usually use ABC for 6x7 and larger, enlarging with cold light or contact printing. ABC produces a grainy, sharp neg with great highlights if you get it right, but you can reduce the grain for medium format if you target your negs for grade 3 instead of grade 2. I don't usually print big, so for me, this works.

SteveH said:

All,
Thanks for all the help....Im going to wander over to unblinkingeye shortly....But it seems as if the general opinion goes for pyrocat hd., so perhaps a bottle is in order..

Thanks again,
Steve

Click to expand...

Get the chemicals and mix your own stock solutions, its cheaper and not really that hard.

One of the characteristics of most pyro users is that they used a traditional developer first and then for one reason or another decided to try a pyro formula and wound up sticking with it. And once we find something that really works well, there is not a lot of reason to switch.

In my own case I switched to PMK at a time when I was exposing a lot of TRI-X 320 and printing primarily on VC silver papers. The improvement in my work was immediate in that I was able to print highlight densities without blocking that in the past, developing with D76 and HC-110, were impossible to print without blocking. I used this combination for at least seven or eight years and was very happy with it.

Later I switched to alternative printing and and the advantage I had seen with PMK and TRI-X was no longer there. In fact, the long development times needed to get the high contrast needed for my alternative work resulted in a lot B+F, especially with rotary processing in drums. The Rollo Pyro formula came along and it solved some of my problems but I was not entirely happy with it, for reasons I don't care to go into here, so I started to look for something that would more specifically address my needs, which was rotary processing for high average contrast in tubes and drums. Another thing I had always been interested in was stand development, so in my extended work in formulating the Pyrocat-HD formula I also tested for this feature.

Once I started using the Pyrocat-HD formula it became obvious that it satisfied all of my requirements, and at considerable saving in cost over other existing formulas, so I have continued to use it personally for most of my work. I have tested a number of other formulas but continue to develop nearly all of my important negatives in Pyrocat-HD. There may be formulas that better satisfy the needs of some people, but given my considerable experience with this developer, and the rather large database of information I have developed in testing films, I see no reason to change.

I think you will see this attitude in a lot of pyro users, regardless of the formula they are using, i.e. we are primarily image makers, not developer makers, and once we get something that works well for us we do what we like best, make negatives and prints.

Sandy

SteveH said:

All,
Well it seems as if some promises aren't to be fulfilled anytime soon (rodinal is coming back...), so life moves on. The internet (and apug) is filled with the hymn-like praises of Pyro - which Im going to use to replace my beloved Rodinal.
So, where to start ? What to get, what to try ? The film I use is either Fomapan 100 when its in stock, or FP4+. I also got my hands on one of the Efke PL25 boxes, so that too. I do tray development for the time being.

Thanks !

Click to expand...

The important thing to remember is that Pyromaniacs are not born - they are made. I use Pyro for negatives that will not require too much enlarging or too much film speed. For 35mm - I don't use pyro - too grainy. I use XTOL or something else depending on the need. I have used these developers and this is my observation (opinions vary):

Pyrocat HD (Catechol): - zillions of users - bullet proof. high accutance - good shelf life (a year) - very fine grain for pyro - good highlight control. can be used very dilute for stand processing - can be used to make dense negs for alt processes. /// looses one stop of film speed (except for stand processing) for 35mm and 11x14 prints it is much grainier than XTOL or any Metol/Sulfite developer. Works very well with continuous aggitation. (I use this a lot)

PMK (Gallol):- multi zillions of users - good highlight clamping - very good shelf life (years) - different color stain - good and bad depending on the paper you use. bullet proof time tested formula. /// looses one stop - a little grainier than pyrocat. Can streak or cause uneven development in continuous processors (I used to use this - now mostly pyrocat)

510 Pyro (Gallol):- hundreds of users? - good highlight clamping - FULL FILM SPEED - can build very dense negatives - can be used to push process - Very easy to use - very very long shelf life (several years?)- /// grain like PMK - (I use this for certain things - like highlight clamping for larger formats where I need to push process) I would recommend it for medium formats.

You said that you are a Rodinal user. From what everyone is saying, Rodinal will return. There is also the Formulary version and the homebrew. Don't give up on Rodinal, it does different things that pyro/pyrocat.

Slighty OT...

Sandy: I was going to try Pyrocat HD myself some time ago but ran in to posts saying that the stain colour has a large impact when using VC paper. Recently I recall reading that this was not necessarily so... So, now I'm confused (nothing new there then...).

What is the real dope on this: is it a factor, and if so, how much are we talking?

Cheers, Bob.

Interesting.
Jim - I have read the same thing too about Rodinal coming back; but as of yet no one knows..
As far as everything else goes, the only drawback that I see is loss of film speed. This time of year with the wind, 100asa is pushing it for outside shots, I can't really imagine what it would be like using a 25asa rated film.
Also, I have a cold light for my enlarger, but haven't really even messed with it yet. Will it be an absolute MUST, or can I still use my regular bulb and condensor setup ?

Thanks,

One other thing...
Anyone out there using Wimberley WD2D+ Pyro-Metol ?

You can use any enlarger you like. A condensor will work just fine. If you're printing on VC paper you'll just have to play around with the filters in the drawer or under the lens.

I've done WD2D+ and it's good stuff. It (like any other film/dev combo) took awhile to nail it down re: exposure & times, but I got it there. I'll go back to it someday after I finish off all the other chemistry I have plus Jay's formulas.

I'm not sure if the "+" has any real benefits. A formula for straight WD2D (no +) is in the "Darkroom Cookbook" and I'll probably use that as I'm such an Evil Scientist. Perhaps you have to compare the "+" and no "+" side by side.

So many formulas, so little time!

The stain of all pyro staining developers has a large impact on VC papers. In general, you will need to develop longer if you plan to print on VC silver papers than if you plan to print on graded silver papers (not including AZO of course). The major impact of the stain with VC papers is to provide compression of shoulder values. This makes it easier to hold detail in the highest highlights of VC papers because the stain functions like a continually increasing low contrast filter. Exactly how much stain is needed to obtain the optimum benefit can not be stated exactly since the amount needed depends on the amount and type of highlight detail in the scene. Of course, with VC papers you have the filters to play around with to get the contrast you want, so some of this may be a moot point.

Theory suggests, and tests show, that the brown stain of catechol developers does not compress highlight detail as much as the green stain of pyrogallol developers. This is supported by testing by Barry Thornton, which he describes in The Edge of Darkness, and by my own testing. However, depending on film and pH the stain of any staining developer, especially that of pyrogallol based developers, can vary a great deal, from very green to brown. By contrast, the stain of catechol based developers is almost always brown, or even brownish-black, which can make it look almost neutral in color.

Whether or not there is any advantage to be had from staining developers with VC papers depends not only on the scene being photographed, but on the curve of the film type being used to photograph the scene. In my opinion scenes of very high and high contrast benefit greatly from development in staining developers, especially when photographed with a film such as TRI-X 320, which tends to have a flaring curve in the shoulders when developed in many developers. This is an optimum combination because the compression created by the stain compensates for flaring shoulder and allows one to print highlight detail without blocking. On the other hand, scenes of normal and low contrast with a film like TMY, which has a very straight line curve, might better be rendered with a traditional non-staining developer if you plan to print on VC papers, since the stain may cause too much shouldering and give mid-tones lacking in separation. You might be able to compensate for this by developing longer, but then again you might not.

Fortunately none of these considerations apply when talking about UV sensitive alternative processes and silver graded paper, including AZO. With these processes stain merely adds contrast and does not cause any highlight compression.



Sandy

Bob F. said:

Sandy: I was going to try Pyrocat HD myself some time ago but ran in to posts saying that the stain colour has a large impact when using VC paper. Recently I recall reading that this was not necessarily so... So, now I'm confused (nothing new there then...).

What is the real dope on this: is it a factor, and if so, how much are we talking?

Cheers, Bob.

Click to expand...

Thanks for such a complete explanation...

Cheers, Bob.

All,
Yet again I am reminded of your intelligence, and humbled by my own ignorance ! I have ordered up some pyrocat-hd, so hopefully I'll have some findings to report within a couple of weeks.

Thanks again,