Major event at Kodak

Photo Engineer · May 29, 2011

Kodak sales are down due to the motion picture film sales decrease that I posted earlier this year. This is the biggest item in the Kodak product line and even if B&W sales are up 8% or consumer color is up 8% (similar to the report by Ilford) that is a drop in the bucket compared to the 30% slide in MP products that might have taken place.

As for KNOWING absolutely, well, I live in Rochester. Things do get around when many neighbors work (or worked) at Kodak. This event has been a rumor for months with expected layoffs, but the date was just finalized recently I guess. We will have facts to present to you in published literature as soon as it becomes available.

As for giving or selling formulas to other companies, remember that film and paper formulas do not "travel" well between plants! I doubt if Fuji or Ilford could easily make any Kodak product without complete redesign.

PE

Marvin · May 29, 2011

I took a trip to Niagara Falls back in the 90s and just had to take a trip to Rochester to take a tour of Kodak and George Eastman House. I enjoyed them both and hate to hear of the troubles Kodak is having. I think film demand will settle out at some point and I hope the suppliers can adjust. With most consumers and professionals moving to digital I think the hobbist will be the ones still supporting film. I hope that it will settle at a level that will keep the film suppliers profitable.
Marvin

Marvin · May 29, 2011

Another question for PE. Can either of these buldings be used for any type of film or do certain lines produce only one type of film.

Henning Serger · May 29, 2011

sandermarijn said:
Don't we want sources, real ones?

Probably I can help:

In January 2009 there was a visit of Journalists from the Democrat and Chronicle at Kodak Park in Rochester.
Their report "Kodak clings to film" was published on 4. January.

I quote: "Today, every roll of camera film comes out of Building 38 at Eastman Business Park."

Building 38 is the other big film coating machine (the more modern one due to R. Shanebrook).

So, most probably we as film photographers are not affected by closing of "14 Room".
Relax, don't waste your time in another superfluous doom and gloom thread, go out shootig film and have fun .

By the way, all other film manufacturers (except Agfa-Gevaert and Fuji) all have had only one coating machine for decades. And they are coating different products on their machine, not only films, but also RC and FB paper, inkjet and other products (e.g. look at the product portfolio of InovisCoat, they are running the former Agfa Leverkusen film coating machine).
Interestingly now Agfa-Gevaert is running more coating machines than Kodak (last year there was an official announcement from them that tey are coating more than 1 million m² every day, lots of different film products including PCB films).

Best regards,
Henning

Photo Engineer · May 29, 2011

In answer to the above two posts, IDK what is coated where anymore so IDK what will be affected. Since no changes in the product lineup have been announced, we may have to wait to see if there is any change or not. It may be that the result is greater efficiency and/or lower costs.

Kodak is coating on 3 machines in addition to the one being shut down. One here, one at Harrow and one in Colorado. The two outside Rochester coat paper. All 4 machines in use presently, probably coat at up to 3x the speed of any other machine at any other company. So, production capacity remains high.

PE

Thomas Bertilsson · May 29, 2011

I had a silent thought that perhaps the consolidation of the Portra films had something to do with terminating use of one of their coating plants? With fewer SKUs it's easier to manage the work flow with a single line as opposed to two.
Somehow I am forced to think along the lines that Kodak needs to do this consolidation in order to attempt bringing back some form of profit from their analog business, or at least to stop the bleeding. Except for the workers involved, whom I hope can find other sources of employment within Kodak's expanding digital business, it could be a good thing. At least I hope so. They simply cannot stay in the analog business at all if they continue eating profits out of the company like they are today.

bsdunek · May 29, 2011

R gould said:
Sad day, but I suppose it is a reflection of the times we live in, but at least 1 building is still producing film,
Richard

My thoughts too. Can't stop progress. They made the best of the best, and I always thought Kodak had the best customer service/relations of any company.

SWphoto · May 29, 2011

Any thought that Fuji is interested in remaining in the business and perhaps pick up emulsions from Kodak is, I'm afraid, sadly misplaced. All they do is discontinue films, sow confusion as to what they make/distribute where, act generally incompetently.

sandermarijn · May 29, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
As for KNOWING absolutely, well, I live in Rochester. Things do get around when many neighbors work (or worked) at Kodak. This event has been a rumor for months with expected layoffs, but the date was just finalized recently I guess. We will have facts to present to you in published literature as soon as it becomes available.
PE

Then the news seems credible indeed. Forgive me, but there have been some rumours over the last few years of products being discontinued that turned out to be wrong or half-wrong. Fortunately this is not a product being scrapped, only a facility

yeknom02 · May 30, 2011

I'm glad that Kodak is doing this and not going the way of, say, Polaroid. I think the general consensus around the internet is that the market for film has either stabilized or is starting to grow somewhat. The problem is that Kodak is/was so unbelievably huge before the popularity of the digital camera that they're still having trouble adjusting.

I do know that Ektar 100 and Portra 400 are two fantastic films, and I'm looking forward to buying some Portra 160.

eclarke · May 30, 2011

Do what I did, I bought $500 more of Tri x sheets to add to my stash when I saw this thread....a big sales increase would do a lot to keep them going!!!..Evan Clarke

ArtTwisted · May 30, 2011

at this point I would love for the market to just get it over with. If fuji or kodak pulls out of film entirely it would be a shame but it would allow the remaining player to be much stronger, and they could focus on there entire line up. For black and white there has never been anything to worry about with ilford, efke, foma, etc.

CGW · May 30, 2011

Michael R 1974 said:
Speak for yourself. Without Kodak, there is only Ilford for me. I have zero interest in Efke, Foma and all the other companies making crap quality, throwback-technology film.

Totally agree. Kodak's withdrawl would mean game over. Unlike Ilford, these tiny companies lack the research and marketing chops to be effective players. The first and last time I used Chinese-made "Lucky" 120 b&w, it jammed in my Mamiya RB67 back and just concertina-ed up. A world without TMY-2? Half-baked, "walking dead" versions of Agfa APX just don't cut it. Be very careful what you wish for.

MaximusM3 · May 30, 2011

CGW said:
Totally agree. Kodak's withdrawl would mean game over. Unlike Ilford, these tiny companies lack the research and marketing chops to be effective players. The first and last time I used Chinese-made "Lucky" 120 b&w, it jammed in my Mamiya RB67 back and just concertina-ed up. A world without TMY-2? Half-baked, "walking dead" versions of Agfa APX just don't cut it. Be very careful what you wish for.

I tend to agree here. It's all Kodak for me, followed by some Ilford and a splash of Acros (aside from my remaining old stock of APX,etc). For as much as things can be molded a bit playing with curves/developing, etc, there are no substitutes (and likely never will be) for Tri-X, TMY and Portra. I really hope this is simply a consolidation move for Kodak to improve efficiency and maybe some profitability. In the meantime, I'm just buying more. Yes, hoarding a bit but I do shoot quite a lot.

Roger Cole · May 30, 2011

I've seen too many photos I like made on Foma and Efke to write them off. The big thing is QC, but that will probably improve.

Even so with Ilford as well as the east European brands I could survive in B&W quite well without Kodak, though I'd miss Tri-X, TMY-2 and TMZ. I already miss Plus-X in 120 though I could get it on the 'bay if I really wanted it that badly. I just tend to stop using materials I can't get new any more. Color is the big thing with only Kodak and Fuji. I read someone on the LFPF saying that Kodak and Fuji were rumored (yes, thankfully just a rumor) to have agreed to make E6 materials only for a bit longer. I'd probably scream if E100G were to go away just as I've really come to like it so much, but if it does, it does. My main interest is in B&W now.

BobCrowley · May 30, 2011

I think the negativity in this thread is residual though I do feel for those who have chosen all of their tools. After just touring Ilford in Manchester, TIP in Enschede, and soon others, I see what Kodak is doing - right sizing - perhaps a little late, and what Old Pol should have done, as expected and good signs.

Lomographers use cameras to take pictures. They sure beat those who collect them, from the point of view of film manufacturers.

Smaller film manufacturers are not all unsophisticated, and the quality can be very good. Some do have significant R&D. With improved sales, they could think about investing in upgrades. New markets to serve stimulate investment - not markets where users have already made their final choices. The research I've done (extensive, professional market research) shows that the "old" market has been eclipsed by a new and younger one, and that makes me optimistic.

jakyamuni · May 30, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Ken;

Regarding your "signature line", what happened to all of the yolks. And, when Albumen printing went out of business, more to the point, what happened to all of the egg farmers?

PE

I hear they made a dandy killing on cheesecakes...

Thomas Bertilsson · May 30, 2011

Like you, I think a healthy attitude toward change is a good thing. For me, I don't mind that new players enter the market to serve a changing audience.

What I don't like is using films where I run into technical problems. In money crunches I have tried Foma 100 and 400 films, for example, and run into quality issues that I have never seen with Kodak, Ilford, or Fuji films (or the old Agfa, for that matter). Holes in the emulsion, and weird anomalies that I couldn't explain. I don't wish to make these manufacturers feel bad about their product, but they do have quite a bit to go before they can crank out film with the same consistent quality that Kodak, Ilford, or Fuji can. They just aren't in the same league. Sorry.
Their films can yield some really outstanding results; I don't ever wish to deny this. I know it, because I have seen it with my own eyes. Foma 100 in replenished Xtol has the tonal results I could live happily with for the rest of my life. But... inconsistent problems with the film keeps me from using it. I don't have time to go re-shoot scenes because there was a problem with the film.

I think Kodak is trying to align their business with the times, downsizing in the most rational and beneficial way. I for one hope they stick around for a long time yet. The photography world would be a lot poorer if they suddenly disappeared.

BobCrowley said:
I think the negativity in this thread is residual though I do feel for those who have chosen all of their tools. After just touring Ilford in Manchester, TIP in Enschede, and soon others, I see what Kodak is doing - right sizing - perhaps a little late, and what Old Pol should have done, as expected and good signs.

Lomographers use cameras to take pictures. They sure beat those who collect them, from the point of view of film manufacturers.

Smaller film manufacturers are not all unsophisticated, and the quality can be very good. Some do have significant R&D. With improved sales, they could think about investing in upgrades. New markets to serve stimulate investment - not markets where users have already made their final choices. The research I've done (extensive, professional market research) shows that the "old" market has been eclipsed by a new and younger one, and that makes me optimistic.

Ken Nadvornick · May 30, 2011

Some additional background...

"At the turn of the 21st century, American shutterbugs were buying close to a billion rolls of film per year. This year, they might buy a mere 20 million..."

[...]

"But there's also a swelling band of new devotees who grew up in the digital age and may have gotten hooked from spending a magical hour in the darkroom during a high school or college class.

"Others are simply drawn to its strengths over digital and are even venturing into retro-photo careers."

[...]

"Analysts foresee Kodak offloading its still-profitable film division sometime in the next half-dozen years as it battles to complete a long and painful digital transformation."

How much longer can photographic film hold on?
By BEN DOBBIN, Associated Press – Mon May 30, 3:11 pm ET

Ken

brucemuir · May 30, 2011

^wth is a "retro photo career"

removed account4 · May 30, 2011

sad that more people are out of work in a bad economy ..
but it this means that K is consolidating their resources,
and pruning the tree i don't see this as a bad thing ( except for layoffs )
but something that will help them stay alive for a little while longer ...

Thomas Bertilsson · May 30, 2011

brucemuir said:
^wth is a "retro photo career"

A fad? If it is, I hope it last a long time, aiding film sales.

Major event at Kodak

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