Maintaining 68F ????

pasopvoordehondkl.jpg

A
pasopvoordehondkl.jpg

  • 1
  • 1
  • 335
<--

D
<--

  • 4
  • 0
  • 372
The Bank

A
The Bank

  • 0
  • 1
  • 468
Kildare

A
Kildare

  • 4
  • 0
  • 670
Sonatas XII-27 (Homes)

A
Sonatas XII-27 (Homes)

  • 0
  • 1
  • 772

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
199,326
Messages
2,789,680
Members
99,874
Latest member
fauthelisa
Recent bookmarks
0
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Messages
244
Format
4x5 Format
Any suggestions other than a water bath or air conditioner to maintain 68F in a room with ambient air at 80F? I've read processing at this temperature isn't wise. I want to run some tests with a slosher for up to 40 minutes. I ran a temp test using water... the temp increased 3 degrees F in just 8 minutes!

A waterbath sloshes around and moves the developer tray too much. (I'm of course using minimal agitation) I don't have a dedicated air conditioner for the room.

Any suggestions?
 

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
19,974
Location
Honolulu, HI
Format
Large Format
You could try a shallower, colder water bath. I keep a blue ice pack in the freezer so it's always ready to cool things down.
 
OP
OP
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Messages
244
Format
4x5 Format
David, how does one "maintain" a temperature for 40 minutes in the dark even with an ice pack? Shallow means the temperature drifts in the bath as well...
 

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
19,974
Location
Honolulu, HI
Format
Large Format
40 minutes in the developer? Well, that's a more difficult problem indeed.

Maybe a thermometer with a digital readout that can be put a few feet away from the sensor and shielded, so you can check it intermittently, but it doesn't fog the film?

There is an immersible thermostat that you can get from Freestyle that you can connect to a pump that circulates hot water when the temperature drops below the amount you've set it at, but I don't know that it works for cooling as well as for heating.

If you have the option of doing some plumbing and can entertain this kind of solution, you could install thermostatically controlled faucet, like the Intellifaucet, to keep a running water bath at a constant temperature. I've seen this arrangement for color tank lines with a stainless steel water jacket with running water hookups, and stainless steel tanks.
 

RichSBV

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2005
Messages
255
Location
South of Roc
Format
Large Format
I honestly don't know of any commercial units, but my company has used a water flow system that works very well and is essentially very cheap.

Basically, you simply flow water through lines. One end of the loop is in the area you want to control, in this case a developer water bath. The other end of the loop is in a conatiner. For cold temperatures, the conatiner is filled with ice. We use two systems, one is temperature controlled, the other user controlled.

The simple user version could be a very cheap water pump (think indoor fountain) circulating through rubber tubing. The container could be an ordinary picnic cooler filled with ice. Manual controll would be to turn it on to cool, turn it off when not needed...

If you're creative and do some searching, a thermostatically controlled water valve shouldn't be too hard to find...

Just a thought...
 

Craig

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
2,358
Location
Calgary
Format
Multi Format
One thing I've seen is little coolers designed for keeping a bottle of white wine cool in a water bath. You could use that as a reservoir of cold water and use a little circulating pump designed for aquariums to draw the cool water into your waterbath for the developer and then return it to the wine cooler for cooling again.

I'm sure with some creativity you could rig something up. Or move to a cooler climate?

bobbysandstrom said:
Any suggestions other than a water bath or air conditioner to maintain 68F in a room with ambient air at 80F?
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Messages
2,360
Location
East Kent, U
Format
Medium Format
bobbysandstrom said:
Any suggestions other than a water bath or air conditioner to maintain 68F in a room with ambient air at 80F? I've read processing at this temperature isn't wise.
An interesting question! I have just emerged from my attic darkroom - at 7 am on an overcast day the temperature of everything was a cosy 24°C and I simply adjusted my film processing time according to the Ilford chart. I really do not see any difference between these negs and ones processed for longer at 20°C/68°F. If I really wanted to get down to 20°C/68°F, I think I'd go for an air conditioner - this would cool down the whole darkroom environment (including you) and would also be great for loading sheet film into holders or rollfilm onto spirals (nice dry fingers!). The only change I'd make for high temperatures would be to consider using hardening fix, as the mains water supply is likely to be around 15 - 18°C if the air temp. is 30.
Does anyone actually have evidence/experience that high-temperature processing is disadvantageous?
 

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
Processing at the ambient temperature is always easy, and the sanest way to work.

The thing to avoid is temperature changes between solutions. I solve the problem by setting out adequate water and bringing it to room temp.

Fifty years ago, "tropical processing" was an issue with soft emulsions prone to scratching. Hardly a problem today.

Developers from PyroCat to Rodinal to FX2 and beyond will be fine for this kind of work. The only trick will be to test temperature conversion data to see how accurate it is for your formula.

The "Old Way" was to use a Warm Weather Developer in the warm weather and a Cold Weather Developer in, well, cold weather. D-76 and DK-50 were a common choice. XTOL would be a good choice for year round use, and so would Rodinal.
 

lee

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
2,911
Location
Fort Worth T
Format
8x10 Format
I regularly use pyrocat at 75F without any problems that I can see and have friends that have used PMK at 80F in Houston. Try it and see if you like it as DF Cardwell suggests

lee\c
 

Peter Schrager

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
4,173
Location
fairfield co
Format
Large Format
temp

Xtol works fine at 75 degrees. I have processed at this temperature for a long time as I usually have a fair amount of sheet films. Check the Kodak data sheets for times. They are very comprehensive and accurate. Lee is correct as Pyrocat works fine at higher temps.
Best, Peter
 

srs5694

Member
Joined
May 18, 2005
Messages
2,718
Location
Woonsocket,
Format
35mm
Taking another approach, what about putting some insulation around the developing tank? I'm thinking of something like the insulation you buy for a house's hot water tank, but of course you'd need much less of it. If the tank itself is at the target temperature when you pour in the developer, the developer temperature should change much less when the tank is insulated than when it isn't.
 

Neal

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Messages
2,020
Location
Chicago, West Suburbs
Format
Multi Format
Dear Bobby,

Air and water are convenient fluids to immerse your equipment in. If you don't want to use those, how about making a trough for your trays made from concrete? You could pre-chill it to something below 68°F. You would still have some change, but it might be manageable.

Neal Wydra
 

Claire Senft

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
3,239
Location
Milwaukee, W
Format
35mm
In color print processing the drift by method is often used. For instance if your your target is 70ºF start with 60ºF devloper and allow if to drift. In this example I am assuming the after 40 minutes the temperature will get to 80ºF.

You could try this with plain water in your tank to observe the temperature change over the time of development. If you are using a prewet bath then that temperature should also be modified.

Perhaps the best choice maybe to start with a prebath that contains hardener.

I would shoot some 35mm film and just process some tests at the ambient temperature and make a couple of test prints. If 35mm is able to handle this challenge without quality degradation then larger formats would also work well,
 

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
The only tricky part of all this temperature variation is that a degree or two can make a big difference. I ALWAYS measure the temp as it goes into the tank, AND when it comes out. The 'drift method' has never given me consistent results, and that is what I want more than anything else.
 

waynecrider

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 8, 2003
Messages
2,580
Location
Georgia
Format
35mm
The recommendations to up your processing temperature are good ones, as it helps in keeping heat gain to your ambient tmep to a slower gain rate. I try and process at 72 to 74 deg and have never had a problem. In fact I just read a magazine article not too long ago, maybe in Photo techniques(?) about the fact that increased developing temps are not harmful. Your 80 deg ambient temp tho is a mystery to me if you have a/c in the house. I've used a 5000btu a/c unit, $89 + tax at the local appliance store, in my window which helped, but the thermostats are not pin point accurate. They have a range of 3 or 4 degree's, but I was able to maintain much better temps in trays. Watch tho for light leaks thru the unit. They have to be sealed, and it is oft times a hassle, and I had to do my processing at night when the sun was down.

Since you are using a slosher, you have your hands tied a little. What I have done for long stand developing times for LF film is to use a Kodak rubber deep tank with water on the tiled floor. More water, more mass and it holds temps longer. I've successfully used 30 to 45 minute stand developing times without a problem, even with a slight drift. At these times, and if you are diluting your developer, the temperatures within a small range don't appear to me to have a great effect. The problem is, I usually only develop 1 sheet at a time in 2 stainless containers set in the larger tank. Developer quanities can be small and can be one use, and this is why I use this setup. (Whatever you try with water, do your test first and check your thermometer). With the slosher you have trays, so your setup is larger and complicating things. When I think about it, it would almost be more practical to lose the trays and go deep tank with hangers, depending on film size. That's what I did with 4x5 film in the beginning and it was a setup that worked very well. I used floating lids and keeped three containers setup on a counter all the time. I chilled only the developer in the refer and kept the a/c on to cool the area. Just a thought.

You can also try and find a Patterson Orbital processor. They are light tight and can process either 1-8x10, 2- 5x7 or 4-4x5 sheets when set in a water bath that can be maintained by adding ice cubes. This is by far the easiest method to employ for long times with LF film. They process film perfectly when used manually. Rough up the inside floor tho with some sandpaper so the film doesn't stick.
 

Claire Senft

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
3,239
Location
Milwaukee, W
Format
35mm
If higher temperatures work well for you, you might think about the Zone VI timer that speeds up and slows down with temperature variations. It has a setting for both film and paper. I have never used one myself.
 

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
Claire Senft said:
If higher temperatures work well for you, you might think about the Zone VI timer that speeds up and slows down with temperature variations. It has a setting for both film and paper. I have never used one myself.

Good idea as far as it goes: different developer / alkali combinations respond quite differently to temperature variations.

Can the timer be programmed for different coefficients ?

:confused:


.
 

Elox

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
90
Location
Central Texa
Format
Medium Format
waynecrider said:
Your 80 deg ambient temp tho is a mystery to me if you have a/c in the house.


That is easy to understand. Try a Texas summer in an old house, no window in the darkroom for a window unit, darkroom is on the west side of the house, A/C set @ 78º (I swear my wife is part reptile), and an outside temp of 90º at 10 PM. I understand perfectly. :smile:
 

Tom Hoskinson

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
3,867
Location
Southern Cal
Format
Multi Format
I posted most of the following information on Michael and Paula's Azo site in 2004.

I estimated (Arrhenius’ chemical reaction rate model) developer/film activation energies from the curves and tables published by Kodak, Ilford, Agfa, Fuji and Efke for MQ/borax (D76 type) developers used in the range of 20ºC thru 25ºC. I found that the activation energies generally fell within a range of 0.6 to 0.8 electron volts with a mean of about 0.7 electron volts. I then used 0.7 electron volts as a starting point with Pyrocat-HD (a staining and tanning, carbonate alkali) developer and my densitometry data tells me that 0.7 eV is a pretty good number to use as a starting point (at least in the 5ºC range mentioned above). The Arrhenius model assumes an exponential relationship based on temperature and the empirically determined activation energy of the chemical reaction. Reaction rate acceleration increases exponentially as the activation energy increases.

What this means in a practical sense is that over the temperature range of 20ºC thru 25ºC I can use a time adjustment factor of 9% per ºC for Pyrocat-HD (1+1+100) either tank or slosher tray developed with 5 seconds of gentle agitation per minute.

I let all of my development chemistry stabilize at my darkroom ambient temperature, then adjust my developing time using the 9% per ºC factor mentioned above. For temperatures much above 25ºC, I'd do some rate-of-change validation testing with film tests and my densitometer first.

For more on the Arrhenius Reaction Rate Model:
http://www.shodor.org/unchem/advanced/kin/arrhenius.html#ea
 

Claire Senft

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
3,239
Location
Milwaukee, W
Format
35mm
As far as the Zone VI timer is concerned I do not believe you can enter different coefficients: However, regardless of the b&w film if I were using it and one day I had 78ºF temp and the next day 83ºF that the timer should work well with any film/developer combination previously tested.
 

waynecrider

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 8, 2003
Messages
2,580
Location
Georgia
Format
35mm
Elox said:
That is easy to understand. Try a Texas summer in an old house, no window in the darkroom for a window unit, darkroom is on the west side of the house, A/C set @ 78º (I swear my wife is part reptile), and an outside temp of 90º at 10 PM. I understand perfectly. :smile:

I live in FL, lived in AZ, so I know what your saying. Obviously some plantings to shade a particular side of the house is good. Beyond that, and this is soometiing that some can consider, although maybe taking it a little far perhaps, a radiant barrier applied to the inside wall might help. Being in the a/c business heat gain is one of our main concerns. When I wrote that 80 deg seemed a little high it was only because I don't see many customers using that setting. If the house could be maintained at 78deg even for the darkroom time, inside fan on continuously, it does make a difference in the waters heat gain if your developing at a higher temp. Of course more water mass is always better.
 

Dan Henderson

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
1,880
Location
Blue Ridge,
Format
4x5 Format
I have the opposite problem: in the winter my basement darkroom, which happens to have 3 outside walls, radiates lots of cool air off the walls and chills my paper solutions. I am interested in the "radiant barrier" referenced by waynecrider. Does he, or anyone else for that matter, have more info?
Thanks!
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom