Macro with 4x5

Willie Jan · Jun 23, 2009

Hi,
i would like to shoot with my 4x5 and 120 macro a subject that is about 1"x1".
I hoped to get as much detail as possible by going to 3:1.

But focusing is a pain to get it right.
The fresnel makes it harder i guess.
What is best way to do this?

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 23, 2009

Use a lot of light to focus, even if you don't use that much light to make the exposure.

Focus with the rear standard or by moving the camera. Focusing with the front standard will be nearly impossible. Linhof makes a macro rail for LF.

Here's an example with a photo of the setup in my APUG gallery--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This was before I had a Linhof macro rail. I have a short Arca-Swiss plate on the Technika body and a 4" Arca-Swiss type plate on the bed, and I can slide the whole camera in the Arca-Swiss type clamp to focus. It isn't as precise as a geared focus rail, but it's not bad.

Willie Jan · Jun 23, 2009

Maybe the light was indeed the problem for me to focus it correct.
I use a cambo master. Focussing is always done with the back standard. Should be no problem....

A friend of my uses a flat surface where the subject is placed.
This surface has a millimeter movement mechanism from a depth measurement tool that measures 1/100 millimeter.
So he moves the subject and not the camera.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 23, 2009

Sometimes I use a small LED flashlight very close to the subject for focusing.

BradS · Jun 23, 2009

David A. Goldfarb said:
...Focus with the rear standard or by moving the camera. Focusing with the front standard will be nearly impossible.....

This really is the key to doing macro.

Bosaiya · Jun 23, 2009

Compose with the front, focus with the back works for me. I don't use a lot of light, but I keep a pretty good amount of dark material around my head and the ground glass to maximize what is available. Make sure you close off the bottom as well since that lets in more than you might think (grip together with a free hand, use some sort of elastic enclosure, etc.). A set of reading glasses help, if you don't already use them, to get closer to the ground glass. I normally work in the 12:1 (12x) range, but go up beyond 20:1 when the subject calls for it. Don't forget to compensate for bellows extension.

Of course the biggest suggestion is to practice.

verney · Jun 24, 2009

Willie Jan said:
A friend of my uses a flat surface where the subject is placed.
This surface has a millimeter movement mechanism from a depth measurement tool that measures 1/100 millimeter.
So he moves the subject and not the camera.

I have been thinking about building a similar thing. Can you buy those? What are they called?

philosomatographer · Jun 24, 2009

This may be off-topic, but is the "compose with the front, focus with the rear" also responsible for why it is so darn difficult to do high magnification with my Mamiya RB67?

Up to 1:2 or so things are easy enough, but beyond that (> 1:1), the physical act of moving the lens closer to the subject as the bellows is extended actually overwhelms the intention of bringing the focus point closer to the lens, so that focusing "closer" actually moves the plane of focus further away from the camera.

It would be interesting to devise a mechanism of attaching the lens to a tripod / focusing rail, thereby freely moving the camera body backwards when focusing. Hmm...

On a related note, Bosaiya, I would *love* to see some of those 20:1 mcro shots on 4x5, I have never seen examples of such extreme magnification. I can imagine you need some very strong light on the subject to focus and compose, as well as extreme bellows extension and a subject mere millimeters from the lens. This will take some doing I imagine. 2:1 on 6x7cm is tough enough already.

Willie Jan · Jun 24, 2009

verney said:
I have been thinking about building a similar thing. Can you buy those? What are they called?

He made it himself.
He used a micrometer and a small table from which the top plate can move back/forward attached to the micrometer. Build from metal so the table will not move.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 24, 2009

philosomatographer said:
This may be off-topic, but is the "compose with the front, focus with the rear" also responsible for why it is so darn difficult to do high magnification with my Mamiya RB67?

In this situation, the best approach is to set the lens and move the whole camera on a macro focusing rail. The Linhof focusing rail is sturdy enough for a medium format SLR. I've posted a photo of the rail in another thread--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This is the newest version of the rail that I've seen. There's also an older version that comes in that 70's Linhof light tan color that shows up more frequently on eBay.

jp80874 · Jun 24, 2009

Willie Jan,

In addition to working with more light add a Fresnel or brighter ground glass. I added a Boss screen to a Linhof Technikardan 45. Unless you are using strobe lights or lots of ventilation, only adding more light can make the project very warm. Good ventilation to dissipate heat may cause subject movement if the subject is not heavy. If the subject is heat sensitive you can easily melt your project or make it turn brown, black or dead. I have experienced all of the above.

John Powers

Bosaiya · Jun 24, 2009

Here's a four-way rail I've seen. Dead Link Removed

I practice I find it easier to compose the subject and scene n a small platform and just nudge that around. Simple ane effective.

Bosaiya · Jun 24, 2009

philosomatographer said:
It would be interesting to devise a mechanism of attaching the lens to a tripod / focusing rail, thereby freely moving the camera body backwards when focusing. Hmm...

I use two tripods, one attached to the lens area and one to the back. It's simple matter of putting the lens-end were you want it and then moving the back around. I use this method on my large format monorail systems as well as my MF Fuji GX680 as it has detachable rails.

philosomatographer said:
On a related note, Bosaiya, I would *love* to see some of those 20:1 mcro shots on 4x5, I have never seen examples of such extreme magnification. I can imagine you need some very strong light on the subject to focus and compose, as well as extreme bellows extension and a subject mere millimeters from the lens. This will take some doing I imagine. 2:1 on 6x7cm is tough enough already.

Go to my Angels & Insects collection, you'll see quite a lot. I also exhibit the collection quite extensively so it my show up at a town near you.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 24, 2009

Bosaiya said:
Go to my Angels & Insects collection, you'll see quite a lot. I also exhibit the collection quite extensively so it my show up at a town near you.

Beautiful work!

Bosaiya · Jun 24, 2009

David A. Goldfarb said:
Beautiful work!

Thanks, David!

Willie Jan · Jun 25, 2009

jp80874 said:
Willie Jan,

In addition to working with more light add a Fresnel or brighter ground glass. I added a Boss screen to a Linhof Technikardan 45. Unless you are using strobe lights or lots of ventilation, only adding more light can make the project very warm. Good ventilation to dissipate heat may cause subject movement if the subject is not heavy. If the subject is heat sensitive you can easily melt your project or make it turn brown, black or dead. I have experienced all of the above.

John Powers

when looking through a 10x peak loup, i can see the grid of the ground glass (there is a fresnel attached) which somewhat blurs the image at 3:1.

A friend of me adviced me to create a setup where a plain glass is positioned (at the right location) which gives a bright image when looked throug a loup for focusing.

paul_c5x4 · Jun 25, 2009

verney said:
I have been thinking about building a similar thing. Can you buy those? What are they called?

The heads themselves are called micrometer heads, and occasionally you see complete tables on ebay - These are often listed as "microscope stages" or "miniature table". One such example is here

A slightly more crude table can often be found in machine tool dealers listed as a "two way vice" or a "cross vice" - See this offering for a picture. These do not offer the precision of a microscope stage, and many of the chinese made offerings are, for the want of a better word, crap quality.

verney · Jun 25, 2009

paul_c5x4 said:
The heads themselves are called micrometer head...

Thanks but not what I had in mind.

Actual moving of subject could be achieved with a relatively cheap two-way focusing rail. What I want is something that allows me to twist the subject accurately as well as move it. This would allow me to fine tune the plane of focus. Maybe a two-way focusing rail combined with a geared head would do the trick.

Bosaiya · Jun 25, 2009

I use a small pedestal made out of old tobacco tins. I slide it around and twist it until everything looks right. It's cheap, easy, and works well. There were other solutions but I didn't want to overly complicate things.

Macro with 4x5

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