M/X setting on old TLR's - 2 questions...

bvy · Mar 17, 2018

I have a Yashica Mat 124 G with the M/X control. I know what it does -- M delays the tripping of the shutter slightly to allow it to sync with a flash bulb at its peak output (stated casually). I've used X with my electronic flash and it works fine.

1. Is there any advantage to using M for everyday shooting? One possible advantage I can think of is shooting handheld at slower shutter speeds (1/30-ish). Is the delay enough to offset any "micro movement" from the impact of my finger pressing the shutter?

2. Is there any technical reason that M versus X could affect the shutter speeds -- especially the faster ones? Shooting 1/500 at M has a very different sound than 1/500 at X, which sounds very quick. 1/500 at M sounds more like 1/250 at X, but I could just be hearing the delay mechanism.

Yes, I know some people tape or modify the camera so that the switch is permanently in the X position. I don't want to do that, and I'm not sure I need to as I think it's only an issue when using an electronic flash.

Thanks.

Sirius Glass · Mar 17, 2018

1. Only if you were shooting fill in flash with flashbulbs.
2. No.

Rick A · Mar 17, 2018

What Sirius said, plus if you try to use the self timer on M it will jamb, it can only be used on the X setting.

R.Gould · Mar 17, 2018

1 only if you need to use fill in flash with flash bulbs
2 no, the shutter speeds are not affected on either setting, with any of my mx cameras I tend to leave the setting to x as when I left it on m and then tried to use flash I have been known to forget to switch to x result is a blank frame

shutterfinger · Mar 17, 2018

M flash sync setting is firing the flash 15 to 17 milliseconds before the shutter blades reach full open. Being leaf shutters go from full closed to full open in 2 to 3 milliseconds then close again according to the speed selected there will be no noticeable difference in operation with the flash sync set to M.

Arklatexian · Mar 18, 2018

R.Gould said:
1 only if you need to use fill in flash with flash bulbs
2 no, the shutter speeds are not affected on either setting, with any of my mx cameras I tend to leave the setting to x as when I left it on m and then tried to use flash I have been known to forget to switch to x result is a blank frame

+1

Gerald C Koch · Mar 18, 2018

bvy said:
I have a Yashica Mat 124 G with the M/X control. I know what it does -- M delays the tripping of the shutter slightly to allow it to sync with a flash bulb at its peak output (stated casually). I've used X with my electronic flash and it works fine.

1. Is there any advantage to using M for everyday shooting? One possible advantage I can think of is shooting handheld at slower shutter speeds (1/30-ish). Is the delay enough to offset any "micro movement" from the impact of my finger pressing the shutter?

2. Is there any technical reason that M versus X could affect the shutter speeds -- especially the faster ones? Shooting 1/500 at M has a very different sound than 1/500 at X, which sounds very quick. 1/500 at M sounds more like 1/250 at X, but I could just be hearing the delay mechanism.

Yes, I know some people tape or modify the camera so that the switch is permanently in the X position. I don't want to do that, and I'm not sure I need to as I think it's only an issue when using an electronic flash.

Thanks.

NO

T42 · Mar 28, 2018

bvy said:
.... Yes, I know some people tape or modify the camera so that the switch is permanently in the X position. I don't want to do that, and I'm not sure I need to as I think it's only an issue when using an electronic flash. Thanks.

Hi bvy.

You may wish to reconsider if you think your future would EVER involve using an electronic flash, say for fill and light balancing, for example. One gorgeous feature of the leaf shutter is that it syncs at any speed, making light balancing between ambient and flash easier outdoors.

When I had a YashicaMat 124 back in the 70s I had a very humbling occasion when I lost a roll of electronic flash shots because I had accidentally bumped that lever off of X toward M. This is easy to do unawares.

We had a Yashica service point here in Atlanta at that time. I took the camera there and explained the dilemma to the veery nice Japanese technician who presented himself as "Mark." He put the 124 onto a drill press and drilled and tapped a tiny hole next to that sync selector lever, and put a screw into it. He told me that if I ever needed M sync again I could remove the screw. I never did remove it.

I have seen others use the spring from a ball point pen to hold that lever in the X position too.

Happy Day.

darkroommike · Mar 28, 2018

T42 said:
Hi bvy.

You may wish to reconsider. When I had a YashicaMat 124 back in the 70s I had a very humbling occasion when I lost a roll of electronic flash shots because I had accidentally bumped that lever off of X toward M. This is easy to do unawares.

We had a Yashica service point here in Atlanta at that time. I took the camera there and explained the dilemma to a nice Japanese man who presented himself as "Mark." He drilled and tapped a tiny hole next to that sync selector lever and put a screw into it. He told me that if I ever needed M sync again I could remove the screw. I never did remove it.

I have seen others use the spring from a ball point pen to hold that lever in the X position too.

Happy Day.

At one time one of those photo chains had set up in the mall where I worked in a camera store, he was using a Mamiya C220 just like mine so I compare, the company he worked for had epoxied the flash sync to X and also glued down the shutter speed and aperture so that the "photographer" could not inadvertently underexpose a roll of film.

T42 · Mar 28, 2018

darkroommike said:
.... and also glued down the shutter speed and aperture so that the "photographer" could not inadvertently underexpose a roll of film.

That's amazing, Mike. A really high-end box camera, I guess. The shutters on the Mamiya TLRs had a very distinctive "crack" sound, didn't they? I loved how they had bellows and interchangeable optics. But they were big cameras, well... compared to a 124 or a Rollei.

darkroommike · Mar 28, 2018

T42 said:
That's amazing, Mike. A really high-end box camera, I guess. The shutters on the Mamiya TLRs had a very distinctive "crack" sound, didn't they? I loved how they had bellows and interchangeable optics. But they were big cameras, well... compared to a 124 or a Rollei.

"BIG" is relative, the guy I bought my first C220 from also sold the RB-67, M645, Bronicas S2, EC-TL etc. I liked the 6x6 format but could afford a 'blad, had the c220 and an S2a, since the S2a broke twice in the time I had it I shot a lot with the C220. Later sold both when I moved but bought a C220 kit again later and have been a committed shooter ever since.

DWThomas · Mar 28, 2018

I just had my 124G serviced by Mark Hama and he did indeed put the above mentioned little screw in the panel. I had previously glued a piece of black craft foam there, so I guess he followed my line of thinking.

I have never measured, and it might vary between different shutter manufacturers, but I believe the M/X setting simply moves the contacts or their actuator to close earlier in the shutter mechanism's operating cycle for M. That is, from the press of the shutter release to the shutter opening stays the same, only the switch closure shifts in time. (But I could be wrong -- it's happened! )

T42 · Mar 28, 2018

DWThomas said:
I just had my 124G serviced by Mark Hama and he did indeed put the above mentioned little screw in the panel. I had previously glued a piece of black craft foam there, so I guess he followed my line of thinking.

I have never measured, and it might vary between different shutter manufacturers, but I believe the M/X setting simply moves the contacts or their actuator to close earlier in the shutter mechanism's operating cycle for M. That is, from the press of the shutter release to the shutter opening stays the same, only the switch closure shifts in time. (But I could be wrong -- it's happened! )

Hi Dave. Gosh, Mark Hama must be really old by now! Glad to know he's still around. Is he still in Atlanta?

bvy · Mar 28, 2018

T42 said:
Hi Dave. Gosh, Mark Hama must be really old by now! Glad to know he's still around. Is he still in Atlanta?

He's still around, still doing quality work, and still in Atlanta (Marietta). I also just got my camera back from him about two weeks ago.

DWThomas · Mar 28, 2018

T42 said:
Hi Dave. Gosh, Mark Hama must be really old by now! Glad to know he's still around. Is he still in Atlanta?

As bvy said, Marietta, GA. He has a web page.

A cool time lapse video at this page

John Koehrer · Mar 29, 2018

You could tape the lever in the X position.

bvy · Mar 29, 2018

John Koehrer said:
You could tape the lever in the X position.

Easier said than done on this camera.

Sirius Glass · Mar 29, 2018

John Koehrer said:
You could tape the lever in the X position.

Epoxy works even better.

DWThomas · Mar 29, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Epoxy works even better.

Or a small artfully applied dab of silicone caulk might do the job and be easier to remove if one changed one's mind. I had used a small triangle of black craft foam glued down until the aforementioned CLA got me a little screw (and a working light meter).

Arklatexian · Mar 30, 2018

bvy said:
I have a Yashica Mat 124 G with the M/X control. I know what it does -- M delays the tripping of the shutter slightly to allow it to sync with a flash bulb at its peak output (stated casually). I've used X with my electronic flash and it works fine.

1. Is there any advantage to using M for everyday shooting? One possible advantage I can think of is shooting handheld at slower shutter speeds (1/30-ish). Is the delay enough to offset any "micro movement" from the impact of my finger pressing the shutter?

2. Is there any technical reason that M versus X could affect the shutter speeds -- especially the faster ones? Shooting 1/500 at M has a very different sound than 1/500 at X, which sounds very quick. 1/500 at M sounds more like 1/250 at X, but I could just be hearing the delay mechanism.

Yes, I know some people tape or modify the camera so that the switch is permanently in the X position. I don't want to do that, and I'm not sure I need to as I think it's only an issue when using an electronic flash.

Thanks.

M & X don't have anything to do with shutter speeds except when using flash. The delay you are talking about is built into the shutter. With X , there is no delay because almost all electronic flashes is much faster than most shutters so the flash contact is made when the shutter is wide open. Taping the switch is done to keep from accidentally changing the switch. Nowdays most people keep the switch on "X" unless they have a stash of flashbulbs somewhere. It is important to stress that we are talking about blade shutters here. Focalplane shutters have a whole different set of instructions. Some older books about flash are much better at describing all this than modern ones...........Regards!

shutterfinger · Mar 30, 2018

DWThomas said:
I have never measured, and it might vary between different shutter manufacturers, but I believe the M/X setting simply moves the contacts or their actuator to close earlier in the shutter mechanism's operating cycle for M. That is, from the press of the shutter release to the shutter opening stays the same, only the switch closure shifts in time. (But I could be wrong -- it's happened! )

All shutters use a timing mechanism to delay the opening of the shutter on all but the X setting.

Synchro Compur : cocking the shutter puts tension on the main setting and in the M position the pictured delay mechanism locks the blade controller from moving until the delay timing A moves the controller lock out of the path of the blade controller. Lever B is pressed against the center contact closing it and firing the flash then the blade controller is released allowing the blades to open.

Graflex Graphex/ Wollensak Rapax full sync delay drawing. there is a coil torsion spring in the mechanism, similar to a watch main spring.
Other makes of shutters will have a delay trimming mechanism that functions similarly.

DWThomas · Mar 30, 2018

shutterfinger said:
All shutters use a timing mechanism to delay the opening of the shutter on all but the X setting.

Ver-r-r-ry interesting -- thanks!

paul ron · Mar 31, 2018

also the flash sync should not effect the shutters speeds at all.

a problem with yashica flash syncs was if set to m and you used the self timer, it would lock up the shutter. thats why so many had the x-sync switch fixed at x by a screw or glue to prevent accidentaly using m.

M/X setting on old TLR's - 2 questions...

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