M and X settings on YashicaMat

dracblau · Jan 15, 2009

I just bought a YashicaMat LM a few weeks ago as my first medium format camera. I noticed the M and X settings for flash on the front, and my question is: Which setting should I set it for when taking non-flash photographs and why?

Thanks

removed account4 · Jan 15, 2009

the m is for bulbs, the x is for a flash.
bulbs often times had magnesium ( that is the M )
and flash units use xenon gas in a tube ( that is the X )
to excite and make the burst of light.

they are different settings because bulbs required a little bit of a delay
from what i remember, so they want the shutter to wait a bit before firing
so you get the full intensity of the bulb's light. and flash units don't need the delay ...

when you take photographs its probably best to leave it on X with and without a flash
that way when u do decide to use a flash, you will have it on the right setting and you won't have
to worry about it ... but in reality, it doesn't matter what the setting is when you don't have a flash or bulbs.

have fun

john

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2009

If you aren't using a flash it really doesn't matter. That assumes that the shutter is in good operating condition. For shutters that are in need of servicing but need to be pressed into service "just a little longer" I tend to set the synch at x on the assumption that there are fewer moving parts in teh shutter being moved... thus reducing the possiblility of something non-essential (like the synch delay train) hanging up and causing grief. But if the shutter is in good and servicable condition it really doesn't matter when not using a flash.

Ian Grant · Jan 15, 2009

X, because the M setting adds a very slight delay, this allows for the time it takes for a flashbulb to reach it's optimum output.

Ian

Konical · Jan 15, 2009

Good Afternoon,

Assuming that you would use only electronic flash with the camera, loop a small rubber band around the MX lever and the self-timer lever, so that the sync setting doesn't get accidentally changed.

Konical

dracblau · Jan 15, 2009

Thanks for the informative replies.

Steve Smith · Jan 15, 2009

jnanian said:
they are different settings because bulbs required a little bit of a delay from what i remember, so they want the shutter to wait a bit before firing so you get the full intensity of the bulb's light.

Ian Grant said:
X, because the M setting adds a very slight delay, this allows for the time it takes for a flashbulb to reach it's optimum output.

Right idea but in the wrong direction. In the M position, the shutter fires early to compensate for the time it takes for the flash bulb to fire.

Steve.

JRJacobs · Jan 15, 2009

Ian Grant said:
X, because the M setting adds a very slight delay, this allows for the time it takes for a flashbulb to reach it's optimum output.

Ian

There is no delay in the shutter - the M/X switch simply changes when the flash contact is made.

removed account4 · Jan 15, 2009

Steve Smith said:
Right idea but in the wrong direction. In the M position, the shutter fires early to compensate for the time it takes for the flash bulb to fire.

Steve.

thanks steve!

i always thought if you fired the shutter early, and it took longer for
the bulb to be bright, then you would miss the bulb because
the shutter already fired ..

it is a good thing i don't use bulbs
cause, i am totally confused!

john

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2009

jnanian said:
cause, i am totally confused!

somebody is confused.... that's for sure. it's not worth discussing however!
(I still use bulbs and M synch on a regular basis)

archphoto · Jan 15, 2009

BrianShaw said:
For shutters that are in need of servicing but need to be pressed into service "just a little longer" I tend to set the synch at x on the assumption that there are fewer moving parts in the shutter being moved...

Sorry Brian, but X and M settings have no influence on the retardment of the shutter, so no influence on the acutual shutterspeed.

Steve Smith · Jan 15, 2009

Steve Smith said:
Right idea but in the wrong direction. In the M position, the shutter fires early to compensate for the time it takes for the flash bulb to fire.

And I got it wrong!!

I meant to say the contacts trigger early not the shutter.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, M = Bulb, X = Electronic Flash.

Steve.

paul ron · Jan 15, 2009

Try to keep it in the X position. If you try to advance the self timer in the M position it will lock up the shutter n need to be opened up to undo it.

I usually install a small screw by that lever so I don't make this mistake, ever.

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2009

archphoto said:
Sorry Brian, but X and M settings have no influence on the retardment of the shutter, so no influence on the acutual shutterspeed.

Dear archphoto... please enlighten us then... what is the intent of the escapement mechanism that is put in play when a Synchro-Compur is set to "m" versus the escapement mechanism that is taken out of play when a Synchro-Compur is set to "X"?

I never said it affected the shutter speed. You are correct in stating that synch mechanism does not afffect the shutter speed. It only affects the timing relationship between the tripping of the shutter and the connection of the synch contacts (and the resulting ingition of bulb or electronic strobe).

It's not worth discussing whether the tripping of the shutter is retarded versus the connecting of the synch contacts being advanced. But if you can authoritatively explain the escapement mechanism (which retards, not advances) I'd be appreciative because this seems to be a periodic discussion here and on other forums.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5Y...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

http://books.google.com/books?id=CU...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

archphoto · Jan 15, 2009

Once I am back in Holland I will open a shutter, photograph it extensively and explain if you want or so desire.

Yours,
Peter

jime11 · Jan 15, 2009

On my 124G there is a drop of glue that keeps the lever in the "X" position. So, I don't have to worry about jamming the self timer(which I use instead of a cable release). Get your subjects to say "cheese" and hold it until the flash goes off. By the way you don't have to fully set the self timer. Pulling it about 1/2 way across will give enough time to stop camera vibrations if you mount it on a tripod(even my cheapie $19.95 Quantaray)

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v57/Jim.e/

BrianShaw · Jan 15, 2009

archphoto said:
Once I am back in Holland I will open a shutter, photograph it extensively and explain if you want or so desire.

Yours,
Peter

Thanks Peter, but not necessary. I've seen a fair share of shutter guts already. This issue is somewhat off-topic to the original question any way.

Brian

nickandre · Jan 15, 2009

doesn't matter. leave it in X if you attach a strobe or in M if you are using flashbulbs. I have a few if you want...

phenix · Jan 15, 2009

Using the self-timer with the flash/bulb synchro in the M position, will jam the shutter.

Ed Sukach · Jan 16, 2009

jnanian said:
i always thought if you fired the shutter early, and it took longer for
the bulb to be bright, then you would miss the bulb because
the shutter already fired ...

You are correct, John.

Flash lamps burn much more slowly than "electronic" (gas discharge) tubes, therefore, to compensate, the shutter manufacturers incorporated a delay (M=50 milleconds) - between contact with the flash and (later) shutter opening.

If the shutter was activated before, at speeds greater than 1/200 (50ms), it would have been closed BEFORE the flash lamp started.

Ian Grant · Jan 16, 2009

As Ed says the shutter has a built in delay on the M setting, as both Brian & I stated earlier.

I'd suggest Peter (archphoto) has a look at the Ilex/Acme Synchro shutters where this delay is actually adjustable with a dial for different types of flash bulb.

Ian.

paul ron · Jan 16, 2009

Come on guys, this is all nonsence. The X-M synch only effects "when" the PC is fired in relation to the shutter opening n absolutely nothing to do with the shutter speeds at all. The mechanism involved has to be activated with the same force regardless of which setting you use.

BUT... if you were to use the M setting when activating the self timer, you WILL jam the shutter n that's a fact jack.

Ian Grant · Jan 16, 2009

paul ron said:
Come on guys, this is all nonsence. The X-M synch only effects "when" the PC is fired in relation to the shutter opening n absolutely nothing to do with the shutter speeds at all. The mechanism involved has to be activated with the same force regardless of which setting you use.

BUT... if you were to use the M setting when activating the self timer, you WILL jam the shutter n that's a fact jack.

There's no nonsense here. The M position allows a mechanically timed delay between the shutter release triggering the flash synch and the shutter blades opening.

No-one is saying it has anything to do with the actual shutter speed that's almost irrelevant with a leaf shutter, rather because of the controlled delay that the M setting introduces it's better to use the shutter at the X setting for normal use.

Ian

BrianShaw · Jan 16, 2009

paul ron said:
Come on guys, this is all nonsence.

What is nonsense is when folks know a fact... which we all seem to agree that the fact is that the X-M switch determines the timing relationship between the flash initiation and the shutter "full open" position... and then imagine that they understand the mechanical way in which that is engineered.

There are a variety of mechanical ways, but all involve a detent - AKA delay - of some kind to get the M-flash initiation to occur 50 ms (nominally) before the shutter is fully open. There is a "mechanical slide mechanism" which is relies on the length of strip of metal to establish the timing; there is a clockwork detent mechanism, the Sychro-Compur being a classic example; there is a solenoid detent, like the Graflex system which uses movement time of a electromagnetic assembly to establish the delay timing

There are numerous patents throughout the 1960s and 1970s that used electrical circuits (timer circuits) to control the relationship between flash initiation and shutter opening. Many were simply electonic delay timers, but one I recently reviewed acutally computed changes in the overall shutter speed to compensate for flash bulb burn rate.

So it's not nonsense... it's ENGINEERING. Understanding how mechanisms are engineered trumps imagining how things work every time.

But we are only talking about milliseconds here... so lets not lose friendships over it.

[I won't even comment on your "fact jack". ]

removed account4 · Jan 16, 2009

:munch:

M and X settings on YashicaMat

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