Lupex Grade 2

Jarin Blaschke · Oct 23, 2023

Hello all:

I have personally become hooked on chloride paper, which is clearly superior by my metrics and not replaceable by any enlarger-speed paper. Since Lodima has faded away, our only choice these days is Adox Lupex of course, which is only available in a fairly high contrast “universal grade”. According to my tests, it is exactly the same paper as the old Lodima grade 4. Indeed, Paula Chamlee confirms that Lupex began as Lodima for the European market.

Those of us who use and love this paper have worked to tailor our negatives to Adox’s “universal“ grade, but sometimes there is a great negative that deserves a great print but needs a proper step down in contrast. Even when the spot meter fits the scene onto the negative perfectly, sometimes you find the image needs adjustment to work emotionally.

So, I am about to write Adox, asking if Lupex grade 2 could be made if a minimum order were met. If so, what quantity that would be? After 30 years of shooting, I am about to begin printing my first portfolio/s in earnest. Personally, I would have use for a large quantity of paper. I need 8x10 and 16x20. I might also have use for 24x30.

I am posting this to roughly gauge how much outside hunger there is for a lower grade of Lupex. I feel that this would move the paper from a curiosity to a proper working paper, and give this superb product its due. Presumably they already have this formula as they developed multiple grades with Smith/Chamlee for Lodima.

How many of you others would buy Lupex grade 2?

-Jarin

Alan9940 · Oct 23, 2023

I've used Adox Lupex for many years and IMO it's a beautiful paper. But, the contrast is usually just too much for my taste and negatives. I successfully used pre-flashing and David Kachel's SLIMT techniques to reduce the contrast, but these "solutions" can be problematic and somewhat cumbersome. Give me access to a grade 2 and I'd be a happy camper for sure!

Pioneer · Oct 23, 2023

Have a bit of Lupex on the shelf; guess I'll have to do some testing on what we have already. Also have some Lodima on stand by but if we can get Lupex in Grade 2 I am in.

MarkS · Oct 23, 2023

I'd buy some grade 2 paper. Most of my old 8x10 negatives have too much contrast for the current emulsion.
I might try a low-contrast paper developer... but it's much better to have a choice of paper grades.
Even a grade 1!

Alan9940 · Oct 23, 2023

MarkS said:
I'd buy some grade 2 paper. Most of my old 8x10 negatives have too much contrast for the current emulsion.
I might try a low-contrast paper developer... but it's much better to have a choice of paper grades.
Even a grade 1!

Over the years, I've tried a couple of different low-contrast paper developer formulas, a brief dip in Amidol followed by a water-bath, and split style techniques ala Selectol Soft / Dektol all resulting in unacceptable results for me. I gotta believe that a lower contrast version of Lupex would certainly have market viability given that there's no competition (that I'm aware of) currently available.

Sal Santamaura · Oct 23, 2023

Mirko has stated that ADOX coated Lupex exactly once. Everything sold from the start through today is from that one master roll. I suspect a request for another variation won't be met with much enthusiasm, given the sales volume existing product has experienced.

Jarin Blaschke · Oct 23, 2023

Well what I intend to ask is what the cost of a minimum order is, in the interest of paying for a run of it. If it’s lower 5-figures, and others would buy, I can probably figure it out. If it’s a lot more than that, well…

What Paula tells me is that whenever they make a batch, the climate and time of year needs to be just right. There were also a few rounds of Lodima, which means there were a few rounds of Lupex.

Sal Santamaura said:
Mirko has stated that ADOX coated Lupex exactly once. Everything sold from the start through today is from that one master roll. I suspect a request for another variation won't be met with much enthusiasm, given the sales volume existing product has experienced.

Lachlan Young · Oct 23, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Mirko has stated that ADOX coated Lupex exactly once. Everything sold from the start through today is from that one master roll. I suspect a request for another variation won't be met with much enthusiasm, given the sales volume existing product has experienced.

Not true - it was coated on the Inoviscoat machine once, but seems to have been transferred to the Marly machine in the process of bringing it online before other film/ paper projects. Without going too deeply into the photochemical 'why', a fairly hard grade of chloride paper may be easier to make on the particular machine as some routine coating addenda seem to be part of the difference between G2 and G4. Older types of coating may have similarly made softer grades easier to achieve without significant R&D.

As it is, this whole thread could be summed up in the reality that masking the neg would be a whole lot faster than trying to force Adox to R&D a softer grade of Lupex.

mshchem · Oct 23, 2023

I suspect that Polywarmtone would be Adox's first choice to try.

I would contact Foma, they made Fomalux, it's fantastic paper. They still make graded bromide papers.

Also Fomatone is an amazing, chloride rich paper.

Jarin Blaschke · Oct 24, 2023

Lachlan Young said:
Not true - it was coated on the Inoviscoat machine once, but seems to have been transferred to the Marly machine in the process of bringing it online before other film/ paper projects. Without going too deeply into the photochemical 'why', a fairly hard grade of chloride paper may be easier to make on the particular machine as some routine coating addenda seem to be part of the difference between G2 and G4. Older types of coating may have similarly made softer grades easier to achieve without significant R&D.

As it is, this whole thread could be summed up in the reality that masking the neg would be a whole lot faster than trying to force Adox to R&D a softer grade of Lupex.

As they previously made Lodima already, they would have the formula, or do you imply that the peculiarities of a particular machine bring around a new R&D of sorts?

J

Lachlan Young · Oct 24, 2023

Jarin Blaschke said:
As they previously made Lodima already, they would have the formula, or do you imply that the peculiarities of a particular machine bring around a new R&D of sorts?

J

It might be the peculiarities of running roughly the same Azo/ Lupex/ Lodima formulae on a dip coater (I strongly suspect that the first toll-coater of Lodima was Efke) and on a waterfall/ slide coater - especially as going from the very-close-to-Azo formulae that Ron Mowrey disclosed in his book, the grade differences are effectively made via addenda just before coating - which include components that can act as development accelerators (effectively steepening the curve shape) as well as coating aids. Most of the trick with making an Azo/ Lupex like emulsion (they aren't, despite the marketing, pure chloride - there's a hint of iodide in there - and most modern colour paper emulsions are also very high chloride percentages too) relates to getting a usable contrast range without it going off the scale (ie litho materials) and good keeping properties.

koraks · Oct 24, 2023

Lachlan Young said:
most modern colour paper emulsions are also very high chloride percentages too

This is correct. RA4 paper is nearly only AgCl with a small trace of AgBr. It's a very steep curve. And it's coated to the same specifications regardless of season, weather or positioning of the planets.

Sal Santamaura · Oct 24, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Mirko has stated that ADOX coated Lupex exactly once. Everything sold from the start through today is from that one master roll. I suspect a request for another variation won't be met with much enthusiasm, given the sales volume existing product has experienced.

Lachlan Young said:
Not true - it was coated on the Inoviscoat machine once, but seems to have been transferred to the Marly machine in the process of bringing it online before other film/ paper projects...

Well, time flies, and looking back through my email Inbox reveals Mirko made that statement to me in November of 2017, so it's possible more might have been coated at Marly. I remain skeptical, however, since he's recently commented in response to other requests for "pre-paid pre-orders" (of MCC110) that ADOX has been unable to guarantee consistent characteristics.

Lachlan Young · Oct 24, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Well, time flies, and looking back through my email Inbox reveals Mirko made that statement to me in November of 2017, so it's possible more might have been coated at Marly. I remain skeptical, however, since he's recently commented in response to other requests for "pre-paid pre-orders" (of MCC110) that ADOX has been unable to guarantee consistent characteristics.

Effectively, what has been disclosed is that Lupex is quite straightforward to coat consistently - and thus allows for the machine to produce saleable product, while work goes on to get MCC (which has been coated at Marly but didn't hit aim points for saleable product as anything other than a test batch) and Polywarmtone to run consistently (and cost effectively) as full production items. CHS 100 II is also running at Marly.

Alan Barton · Oct 28, 2023

This is a very timeley thread. The Lodima website (Paula Chamlee) has a few sizes of their paper left. Lupex is the same paper as Lodima. Adox have a limited range available too now. I am still using 5 year old Lodima (I bought lots) and it remains excellent (developed now in Ansco 130 - got fed up of variable quality Amidol). It is surely time to gauge demand for another run of G2 at least. Mirko should be amenable as long as he can see pre-selling a hefty fraction of the production run. There is a need for sizes other than 8x10 as well (even if just 16 x 20 or 20 x 24). I hope we can keep the Silver Chloride paper alive and well!

ADOX Fotoimpex · Nov 1, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Well, time flies, and looking back through my email Inbox reveals Mirko made that statement to me in November of 2017, so it's possible more might have been coated at Marly. I remain skeptical, however, since he's recently commented in response to other requests for "pre-paid pre-orders" (of MCC110) that ADOX has been unable to guarantee consistent characteristics.

It is not about inconsistent characteristics. The reason why we cannot offer paper is publicly available here: https://www.adox.de/Photo/mcc-and-mcp-production-situation/

The last update is the important figure. Photopaper -unlike film- never increased in price above general inflation over the past decades.
Making it a very competitively priced consumer product (especially in respect to the complexity involved in manufacturing it).
You need mass production power to manufacture something like this so cheaply.
Our current position is that we have the technical ability to do it but not at the price the consumer expects. Increasing the volumes does not help because our small machines (both in emulsifying as well as in coating) do not allow any further economies of scale.
Those would kick in if we built a larger factory.
While this is not excluded and partially actually under construction this cannot be solved by preordering one specific product in a certain amount.
So the Lupex situation in a nutshell is not about how many sqm´s people would be willing to buy but rather which is the maximum price per sqm that we can charge. Productivity in paper is 1/4th on the coater (roll diameter of thick base). The price will be -unfortunately- about double the price which is currently charged for Grade 3 (produced on a large coater).

Sal Santamaura · Nov 1, 2023

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
It is not about inconsistent characteristics. The reason why we cannot offer paper is publicly available here: https://www.adox.de/Photo/mcc-and-mcp-production-situation/

The last update is the important figure. Photopaper -unlike film- never increased in price above general inflation over the past decades.
Making it a very competitively priced consumer product (especially in respect to the complexity involved in manufacturing it).
You need mass production power to manufacture something like this so cheaply.
Our current position is that we have the technical ability to do it but not at the price the consumer expects. Increasing the volumes does not help because our small machines (both in emulsifying as well as in coating) do not allow any further economies of scale.
Those would kick in if we built a larger factory.
While this is not excluded and partially actually under construction this cannot be solved by preordering one specific product in a certain amount.
So the Lupex situation in a nutshell is not about how many sqm´s people would be willing to buy but rather which is the maximum price per sqm that we can charge. Productivity in paper is 1/4th on the coater (roll diameter of thick base). The price will be -unfortunately- about double the price which is currently charged for Grade 3 (produced on a large coater).

Yes, Mirko, but has there ever been more than that one master (parent) roll of Lupex coated?

ADOX Fotoimpex · Nov 1, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Yes, Mirko, but has there ever been more than that one master (parent) roll of Lupex coated?

Oh yes. Many more in various grades over more than a decade by now.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 1, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Yes, Mirko, but has there ever been more than that one master (parent) roll of Lupex coated?

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Oh yes. Many more in various grades over more than a decade by now.

Either you're just playing with me, or we're not communicating very effectively.

First, a refinement to the question. Has there been more than one master (parent) roll of Lupex been coated and offered for sale since the product was introduced in 2016? If so, was Marly involved in the subsequent coating(s)?

NEW SILVER CHLORIDE CONTACT PRINTING PAPER

ADOX LUPEX is a slow speed contact fibre paper made with a silver chloride emulsion and replaces Kodak Azo or Fomalux. The speed is about 8 stops lower than MCC but therefore it is extremely finegrained and yields a superior resolution just like your large format negatives...

www.photrio.com

Second, other than Grade 3, what other contrast grades of Lupex were coated and offered for sale since the product was introduced in 2016?

ADOX Fotoimpex · Nov 1, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Either you're just playing with me, or we're not communicating very effectively.

First, a refinement to the question. Has there been more than one master (parent) roll of Lupex been coated and offered for sale since the product was introduced in 2016? If so, was Marly involved in the subsequent coating(s)?

NEW SILVER CHLORIDE CONTACT PRINTING PAPER

ADOX LUPEX is a slow speed contact fibre paper made with a silver chloride emulsion and replaces Kodak Azo or Fomalux. The speed is about 8 stops lower than MCC but therefore it is extremely finegrained and yields a superior resolution just like your large format negatives...

www.photrio.com

Second, other than Grade 3, what other contrast grades of Lupex were coated and offered for sale since the product was introduced in 2016?

Sal,

I think the misunderstanding here is 2016. This is when we launched Lupex under the Lupex name as well. Before this time we had manufactured it internally under the Lupex name but it was under a different name in the market.
When we had to meet the requirements of the contract coater it was all about minimum coating quantities.
Now that we have everything internalised it is about staying profitable under a given cost/productivity structure.

Mirko

Sal Santamaura · Nov 2, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Yes, Mirko, but has there ever been more than that one master (parent) roll of Lupex coated?

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Oh yes. Many more in various grades over more than a decade by now.

Sal Santamaura said:
Either you're just playing with me, or we're not communicating very effectively.

First, a refinement to the question. Has there been more than one master (parent) roll of Lupex been coated and offered for sale since the product was introduced in 2016? If so, was Marly involved in the subsequent coating(s)?

NEW SILVER CHLORIDE CONTACT PRINTING PAPER

ADOX LUPEX is a slow speed contact fibre paper made with a silver chloride emulsion and replaces Kodak Azo or Fomalux. The speed is about 8 stops lower than MCC but therefore it is extremely finegrained and yields a superior resolution just like your large format negatives...

www.photrio.com

Second, other than Grade 3, what other contrast grades of Lupex were coated and offered for sale since the product was introduced in 2016?

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Sal,

I think the misunderstanding here is 2016. This is when we launched Lupex under the Lupex name as well. Before this time we had manufactured it internally under the Lupex name but it was under a different name in the market.
When we had to meet the requirements of the contract coater it was all about minimum coating quantities.
Now that we have everything internalised it is about staying profitable under a given cost/productivity structure.

Mirko

OK, I'll try again. ADOX LUPEX was launched and offered for sale under that name in 2016. It was offered by ADOX/FOTOIMPEX as Grade 3 only. Since that time, has the ADOX LUPEX that's been offered all come from a single master/parent roll or was enough sold that it was subsequently coated again? Has ADOX LUPEX ever been offered in any grade other than Grade 3? Thanks for your patience.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Nov 2, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
OK, I'll try again. ADOX LUPEX was launched and offered for sale under that name in 2016. It was offered by ADOX/FOTOIMPEX as Grade 3 only. Since that time, has the ADOX LUPEX that's been offered all come from a single master/parent roll or was enough sold that it was subsequently coated again? Has ADOX LUPEX ever been offered in any grade other than Grade 3? Thanks for your patience.

I cannot see why information in this detail would be helpfull to anyone. We are disclosing relevant informations to the customers but not all details. All which matters at this point is that the volume production has become unavailable due to various insolvencies/restructurations with our former partners. If LUPEX is to be coated again it has to be emulsified in Bad Saarow and coated in Switzerland. The dependencies have been highlighted above.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 3, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Mirko has stated that ADOX coated Lupex exactly once. Everything sold from the start through today is from that one master roll. I suspect a request for another variation won't be met with much enthusiasm, given the sales volume existing product has experienced.

Lachlan Young said:
Not true - it was coated on the Inoviscoat machine once, but seems to have been transferred to the Marly machine in the process of bringing it online before other film/ paper projects. Without going too deeply into the photochemical 'why', a fairly hard grade of chloride paper may be easier to make on the particular machine as some routine coating addenda seem to be part of the difference between G2 and G4. Older types of coating may have similarly made softer grades easier to achieve without significant R&D.

As it is, this whole thread could be summed up in the reality that masking the neg would be a whole lot faster than trying to force Adox to R&D a softer grade of Lupex.

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
I cannot see why information in this detail would be helpfull to anyone. We are disclosing relevant informations to the customers but not all details. All which matters at this point is that the volume production has become unavailable due to various insolvencies/restructurations with our former partners. If LUPEX is to be coated again it has to be emulsified in Bad Saarow and coated in Switzerland. The dependencies have been highlighted above.

Well, Lachlan, I suppose we'll call it a draw. What I first posted might be true, or it might not. Mirko plainly doesn't want to let us know.

miha · Nov 3, 2023

What is clear to me from this thread now is that LODIMA and LUPEX are one and the same paper coated by ADOX.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 3, 2023

miha said:
What is clear to me from this thread now is that LODIMA and LUPEX are one and the same paper coated by ADOX.

Really? To me the replies seem to suggest it was coated by Inoviscoat.

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