LPL 7451 or Durst 1200 with Ilford 500H?

Hi,

i can buy a LPL 7451 (with colorhead)

or a

Durst 1200 with ilford 500H multigrade box.

Based on quality is there something to say about the differences between these two???

Thanks for your help

I've had both both and ended up selling the LPL. I have a Durst multigrade head on my 1200.

I have an LPL7451 with colour head and a seperate VC head - its a big, solid well built enlarger with an enormous baseboard and I really love using it - the only bitch I have is that the VC head doesn't have white light access or an attenuator but focusing with the weakest yellow dialled in is no problem - if I want to use graded paper I have to put the colour head back on - however if the Ilford VC enlarger has white light access, the ability to dial in fractions of grades and an attenuator then go with that one - that way you can print with VC or graded paper with the same head. If you print VC with a colour head then each time you change the grade, the exposure has to change too, which is a PITA. Good luck choosing.
Patricia

Quote:
"If you print VC with a colour head then each time you change the grade, the exposure has to change too, which is a PITA."quote

It would be if it were true Patricia, are you sure that's what you meant to write?

The Durst VC head I use has a white light position, and retains exposure time as the grades are changed, although in practice slight adjustment can be needed at extreme grades depending which make of paper I'm printing.

Dave, I have to agree with Patricia. Having used quite a few colour heads on different enlargers with VC papers, including the LPL C7700 and the LPL 7450 there is an exposure difference.

Granted it's tiny, but no matter how careful I am in using the combined Y&M filters, there is a subtle difference. I measure it at about 1/12 of a stop difference in time when I shift from grade 3 1/2 to grade 3 3/4. I could not get it any better than that.

These days I run a DeVere 504 Dichromat and the exposure change is almost identical.

When I change a full grade of paper filtration, say from grade 2 to grade 3, I get about 1/8 of exposure difference. The difference being that I have to add 1/8 of a stop more time. Conversely, when going down I have to reduce time.

I calibrated my colour enlarger head with the current Ilford VC papers that I use, to ascertain the exposure difference. What I found was interesting.

I first did this with my Meopta fitted with a colour head, followed by the LPL 7700 and then the LPL 7450, finally I did it with my current and probably last enlarger, my DeVere 504.

I found that from grade 0 through to about 1 3/4 the exposure time required remained constant, from grade 2 through to grade 4 1/4 there was always an exposure shift required. The exposure shift between noticeable grade changes, doesn't appear to be linear. Things move faster between grade 2 1/4 and grade 3 1/2 then slow down either side. At least that is what is reasonably apparent with my limited testing.

Of course one has to realise that there really isn't any such thing as a set paper grade when you are using dial in filtration, you can have a poofteenth over grade 3 1/2 and find that that is perfect for that particular neg and paper, on that particular darkroom session.

When using a professionally set-up Ilford head, I've found they give near perfect grade change and exposure change seamlessly. In fact as the exposure is counting down, you can hit a different grade of filtration and your highlights will remain the same, perhaps a bit more or less contrastier, but nethertheless, density will be virtually perfect. When working well, I believe they are the best thing in a darkroom. Second best is a colour head or a B&W VC head.

The exposure changes are generally minimal between grades if using a colour head and dialing in both Y&M, but in the four personal enlargers I've had with colour heads, I have always found a slight density difference.

With experience I can guestimate the slight density difference very well.

There is of course the possibility that different manufacturers colour heads will work better and don't require exposure changes between grade changes, that would be interesting to know.

Mick.

I use two enlargers - a Meopta Opemus with colour head, and a Durst 138L with condensor head and a set of Agfa CC filters in the filter drawer.

If I decide to change grades after finding the correct exposure I meter the highlights with my Ilford EM-10, change filtration, and then adjust aperture and/or ND filtration to give exactly the same reading. Result: Identical exposure.

patricia de roeck said:

I have an LPL7451 with colour head and a seperate VC head - its a big, solid well built enlarger with an enormous baseboard and I really love using it - the only bitch I have is that the VC head doesn't have white light access or an attenuator but focusing with the weakest yellow dialled in is no problem - if I want to use graded paper I have to put the colour head back on - however if the Ilford VC enlarger has white light access, the ability to dial in fractions of grades and an attenuator then go with that one - that way you can print with VC or graded paper with the same head. If you print VC with a colour head then each time you change the grade, the exposure has to change too, which is a PITA. Good luck choosing.
Patricia

Click to expand...

Hi,
The VCCE head design was redesigned (quite some time ago) to eliminate the "no white light" problem. The current module employs a design where the filters are on separate carriers and bypass each other. This design allows for inclusion of a white light lever. However, given that you have a work-around, it may not be worth the cost to retrofit your enlarger.
Celac

Are you confused yet Willie Jan? In my humble opinion, if you print only on VC paper then go for the enlarger with the VC head, it just makes life simpler and eliminates yet another thing that can go wrong - this of course is providing the enlarger can handle the size of the negs you're using. The LPL uses a 24v 200watt quartz halogen lamp - this covers the range from 35mm to 4 x 5 "negs.
Patricia

patricia de roeck said:

Are you confused yet Willie Jan? In my humble opinion, if you print only on VC paper then go for the enlarger with the VC head, it just makes life simpler and eliminates yet another thing that can go wrong - this of course is providing the enlarger can handle the size of the negs you're using. The LPL uses a 24v 200watt quartz halogen lamp - this covers the range from 35mm to 4 x 5 "negs.
Patricia

Click to expand...

I dust came back from my weekend at the beach where i read a part of the way beyond monochrome book. Very good with a lot of tips inside...

Thanks for you help!
I currently print on 4x5", 6x4.5 cm and 6x12cm.
What i knew was that the neg holder of the durst could be changed to any format from 35mm to 4x5, so that is very handy.
I didn't knew that the light difference i have with my color enlarger would be eliminated with the multigrade head. So that's a plus....

What i do currently is printing on kentmere vc (also baryta based), and i print on kentmere art document for bromoil (just started). Besides that foma paper for lith process.

Probably I will know the difference when i buy it and start using it...
At this point I want to buy an enlarger that i can use until the end of ages...
After a couple of years I think it will become hard to find nice tools....

Thanks again and regards to all you analogists.
This helps me again further on...

Willie Jan.

PS
This is what I like about apug. Nice people who are willing to help each other...

Another Qs.

Would a durst multigraph be a better head compaired to the 500H?

Willie, if this is the head with the shutter which only opens up after the lamp is up to maximum brightness, then yes, it is a fantastic system for a lab, but I would question having one for a home darkroom.

Simplicity is really more important so that if things wear or break, you have a chance of fixing it yourself, or getting new parts fabricated to replace worn parts.

The top of the line Durst enlargers that I had the pleasure of using over 15 years ago, were mind bogglingly brilliant, but they required maintenance by specialised technicians.

I myself in my own personal darkroom, opted for a simple, but well built enlarger.

In the time I spent in a commercial lab, it was not uncommon in the B&W darkrooms to have an Ilford multigrade head only running one light, or the filters weren't shifting correctly, or something like that. Whereas the lonely Beseler with a straight manual head, always worked, day in day out.

I realise that these machines worked hard, but it does say something about simplicity.

Durst machines are pretty much brilliant, the LPL is more pedestrian. The Durst machine can be fine tuned to a poofteenth of perfection regarding alignment and things like that. The LPL doesn't have any alignment possibilities as the factory alignment is supposed to be perfect. The two LPL enlargers I've had were quite reasonable.

The original LPL 7450 had issues with big enlargements as the negative carrier was too close to the column. The second model 7451 (I think) had a 50mm spacer that pushed the neg carrier further towards the centre of the easel. This was a big improvement for reasonably big enlargements. The LPL also had an accessory wall mount set of brackets, great feature, I had this and made my own drop table for big enlargements.

What is interesting is that Dave had both of the enlargers you are thinking of purchasing, he sold the LPL and kept the Durst.

I had the LPL and sold it to purchase a DeVere.

The LPL is a very good enlarger, but the other two are in two peoples actions, better. I always believe actions speak louder than words.

Just some things I thought of.

Mick.

I've never used a LPL but I have a Durst L1200 and is exceptionally well built and precise. I've never need to align it

I have a Durst L1200 with the Multigraph head and it is a pleasure to work with. In 15 years of usage (admittedly not constant) I've never had to re-align anything, ever. I also have the color head as I used to do a fair amount of color work. The color head is technically simpler and a lot less things could go wrong with it. I've used it for B&W and it works very well. It has a white light for focusing and a Neutral Density filter which comes in very handy for exposure control. These enlarger used to be very, very expensive. They're still more expensive on auction sites (eBay) than others but you're definitely buying a better engineered, better built enlarger.