Lower cost papers: opinions, info?

hammy · Jan 22, 2007

I'm looking on B&H at different black and white VC RC 8x10 photo papers. I'm noticing that Foma, Agfa, Kentmere and Oriental all seem to be the lowest priced papers. Under $40 for 100 sheets of 8x10 paper is something I can definitely afford.

Right now I only have experience with Ilford VC RC paper, as that's the only thing that my local camera store stocks.

Are these less expensive papers any good? Or are they best avoided? Are there any strong/weak points to them? Total newbie here. Thanks for any help.

aldevo · Jan 22, 2007

Hammy,

I have tried the most recent Freestyle paper, which is re-branded Russian Slavitch paper. It was plain awful, to the point where I don't even consider it a useful tool to learn on.

The Arista EDU Hungary photographic paper sold by Freestyle is rebranded Forte paper. The Arista EDU VC FB is my primary paper and it is indistinguishable in quality from the Forte-branded stuff in my experience. I consider it to be excellent. It has a long toe, good Dmax, tones superbly in Selenium and Sepia, and has great gradation. On the down side, it does take on a slightly greenish tint in Dektol and is prone to curl. The RC stuff, is quite similar and in your price range.

I could heartily recommend it but for the fact that Forte will cease production of it on January 26. There's some talk that Kentmere or Foma could keep it in production - I wouldn't bet on it.

Freestyle's Arista II VC RC is $36.99 (not including shipping) for 100 sheets of 8x10. This is re-badged Kentmere paper.

I like it - but it is different than the Forte stuff. It does not produce as high a constrast (which can be a good thing) and has a more moderate toe. The Dmax also seems pretty good and it's less prone to curl than the Forte/Arista EDU Hungary paper. By reputation it tones pretty well, but I have no experience here.

jim appleyard · Jan 22, 2007

Yes! I used to use a lot of the Adorama brand VC/RC paper. Rumor had it that it was made by Ilford, but I cannot verify that.

I'm now using Freestyle's Private Reserve, which one APUGer said was Agfa. As we know, the re-branding done by Agfa and Ilford has now disappeared or is almost there.

I tried one of the Foma papers and it was ok, but fogged under my orange safelight. The instuctions said to use a red safelight and they weren't kidding.

A few years ago I went thru a box of Luminos, made by Kentmere and it gave me almost no contrast, but I did some of their specialty texture papers.

Ultrafine Online sells the least expensive VC/RC paper I've seen in quite awhile and it's good, too. Any finished work goes onto FB paper, but the Ultrafine is great for contact sheets and work print.

Bottom line? Try them, one persons dislikes may be your dreams!

kjsphoto · Jan 22, 2007

For a VC paper try the Arista EDU Ultra which is FOMA I believe. You can get it at freestyle and not very expensive. Or try the Russian paper Slavich which is very good of you want a graded paper. Gives deep black and clean whites.

Either paper would be excellent choices...

aldevo · Jan 22, 2007

I have generally heard good things about the Foma papers. I have not used them firsthand.

I have used Kentmere VC FB (couple hundred sheets, mostly RC, but some fiber too). I generally like it, but I agree with Jim that it does not achieve high contrast grades. It seems to taper off after 3 1/2. Honestly, though, many of my negatives are taken in contrastly light and this is not a problem.

Jim, was it possible the Luminos was old stock? I still see this stuff on the shelves at Calumet Photo in Cambridge, MA - and the stuff has absolutely been sitting there for 3 years - which is when Kentmere last boxed it for Luminos.

Kjsphoto and I have had radically different experiences with the Slavich, though I tested a different paper.

Basically,

Arista Premium papers used to be Ilford papers - but I don't think they are produced any longer. Arista II is Kentmere, the current Arista EDU is Foma, and Arista EDU Hungary is Forte.

chrisofwlp · Jan 22, 2007

Arista EDU (Made in Hungary) is by far the best value on the market at this point in time. From what I hear it is merely re-packaged Forte. It is available through Freestyle photo.

Chris Breitenstein

kjsphoto · Jan 22, 2007

You know what I didn't even think of it, if it is not out of your price range definitely try the Varycon VC FB paper. It is beautiful but you will have to use a Red Safe light or it will fog.

hammy · Jan 22, 2007

Why are papers re-packaged?

And I'm really liking the price of Arista.EDU Ultra 100 sheets. $26

aldevo · Jan 23, 2007

hammy said:
Why are papers re-packaged?

And I'm really liking the price of Arista.EDU Ultra 100 sheets. $26

The idea seems to be that, with the additional volume, the manufacturer gets to run the production infrastructure at greater capacity - which makes it more cost efficient.

The consumer sees a lower price because there's no middle man - the retailer takes over cost of distribution and marketing. Some of said that the lower price is indicative of the manufacturer selling the product at a loss, but I don't necessarily think that's the case. At least, that hasn't been proven to my satisfaction.

Retailers don't even try to keep the real identity of the paper secret any more, by the way.

jim appleyard · Jan 23, 2007

aldevo said:
Jim, was it possible the Luminos was old stock? I still see this stuff on the shelves at Calumet Photo in Cambridge, MA - and the stuff has absolutely been sitting there for 3 years - which is when Kentmere last boxed it for Luminos.

QUOTE]

No, it was current. I bought the paper at Adorama and had such low contrast, even when putting the magenta all the way up to 190+ on the colorhead. I called Luminos and gave them the emulsion/stock # and they said it was current and that Adorama has no trouble going thru stock. Dev was packaged Dektol, also from Adorama.

I would like to try other papers from Kentmere (Luminos was the US dist. for Kentmere papers) as I've used some of theirs in the past.

IIRC, this was Flexicon paper, matte finish. It's probably fine paper, it just didn't suit my tastes.

Roger Hicks · Jan 23, 2007

aldevo said:
The idea seems to be that, with the additional volume, the manufacturer gets to run the production infrastructure at greater capacity - which makes it more cost efficient.

And, of course, cannibalized their premium market, which is why Ilford stopped. As they said, "Why compete with ourselves on price?"

Cheers,

R.

dancqu · Jan 23, 2007

hammy said:
Why are papers re-packaged?

Store and or distributor brands. So I buy 25 sheets each
of lables ABC, DEF, and GHI. Then I find out all three are
the same paper.

But as I mentioned on the Freestyle thread, all that's
needed is the capital, the coating specification, and
paper required. Add a coating plant and out comes
brand X or a respected long on the market Arista
custom paper.

I dare say there are coating plants which are no
more than contract Fab Facilities. They'll turn out
any Brand you care to put on the package. Dan

fidget · Jan 23, 2007

How is the price of "usual" paper now, compared to, say 5 years ago? As a newbie myself, looking at the shrinking market out there, I wonder if it could be said that prices must inevitably rise? Is this as good as it can get?
I use the Ilford products and have recently tried some Kentmere products. I am very happy with them, I'm sure that I will have used many boxes before I find any kind of limitation with them.

pentaxuser · Jan 23, 2007

fidget said:
How is the price of "usual" paper now, compared to, say 5 years ago? As a newbie myself, looking at the shrinking market out there, I wonder if it could be said that prices must inevitably rise? Is this as good as it can get?
I use the Ilford products and have recently tried some Kentmere products. I am very happy with them, I'm sure that I will have used many boxes before I find any kind of limitation with them.

Pretty good I'd say based on the following: In Dec 2002 in preparation for a B&W course at Leamington College, I bought 50 sheets of 8x10 Ilford Multigrade IV Pearl from Jessops at £15. I was brand new to the business so to speak.

Now I can get 100 sheets at various suppliers for about £20 and until recently and maybe the offer still applies, an extra 20 sheets for the same £20. In the intervening 4 yrs lets say price inflation has been running at an average of 2.5 % per year. So on that basis a 100 sheet box based on Jessops price should now be about £30 plus 10%. If we allow for a 50 sheet box being more expensive proportionally than a 100 sheet box by say £2, this might be £28 plus 10% or about £30/31 per box.

OK maybe I was overcharged at Jessops compared to what I could have obtained a similar box at NOVA etc but not by that much I wouldn't have thought.

My conclusion: Ilford paper has become appreciably cheaper.

I can't speak for any other paper as I have used Agfa MC premium once and still have some Tetenal Vario but both were "secondhand" via e-bay.

pentaxuser

fidget · Jan 23, 2007

With due deference to the loss of some major manufacturers in the field, both materials and cameras, has paper has never been cheaper? People sell (or even give away) top class darkroom kit, cameras and lenses, has secondhand kit ever been cheaper? I read here and there that traditional B&W photography is undergoing something of an upsurge of interest....I hope so.
I know that the bubble must burst at some point, but, boy, don't ya just love the digital age?

Photo Engineer · Jan 23, 2007

Please read the article by Dickerson and Zawadski reviewing several brands of VC paper. The results were not very encouraging in some cases.

PE

kjsphoto · Jan 23, 2007

Do you have a link to the article?

Photo Engineer · Jan 23, 2007

Kevin, I have posted this information so many times, it is there somewhere. Photo Techniques about 1.5 years ago. Sorry. The article is not on-line. My magazines are packed away somewhere right now. It does illustrate with curves, how bad some papers can get, but they give no names to the manufacturers to protect the innocent.

BTW, about paper costs, a box of 100 sheets of color paper is about $30. Based on the level of technology and silver content, a similar B&W paper should be about $25 - $30 or even less. The FB should be about $40 - $50. The fact that the prices are just a 'bit' higher than that represents the 'burden' in the market place.

IMHO, B&W paper is grossly overpriced if the market were normal.

PE

aldevo · Jan 23, 2007

fidget said:
With due deference to the loss of some major manufacturers in the field, both materials and cameras, has paper has never been cheaper? People sell (or even give away) top class darkroom kit, cameras and lenses, has secondhand kit ever been cheaper? I read here and there that traditional B&W photography is undergoing something of an upsurge of interest....I hope so.
I know that the bubble must burst at some point, but, boy, don't ya just love the digital age?

Oh, yeah, paper HAS been cheaper all right. In early 2005, you could get 100 sheets of Arista EDU Hungary VC FB 8x10 for $31.99 from Freestyle. You used to be able to get similar FB VC Kentmere Fineprint around the same time for $48.99, too. It's up about 12% since then.

The reason why the prices look low right now is that retailers aren't turning over their analog inventory quickly. Price increases only show up when the retailer orders new inventory at a greater price.

I talked to folks at Calumet Photo in Cambridge, MA three weeks ago and they told me they had not had a need to restock ANY B&W paper product outside of Ilford Multigrade IV in about a year.

The price of Ilford products is steadily increasing because it's the only brand where the inventory is actually turning over. The Pound Sterling hit a 14-year high today, btw, and silver is at $13.26 oz.

This is gonna hurt.

Matt5791 · Jan 23, 2007

Pentaxuser:

Now I can get 100 sheets at various suppliers for about £20 and until recently and maybe the offer still applies, an extra 20 sheets for the same £20.

Yes Nova are still offering this!

Matt5791 · Jan 23, 2007

aldevo said:
II have used Kentmere VC FB (couple hundred sheets, mostly RC, but some fiber too). I generally like it, but I agree with Jim that it does not achieve high contrast grades. It seems to taper off after 3 1/2. Honestly, though, many of my negatives are taken in contrastly light and this is not a problem.

Are you sure about this? - I find Kentmere VC Select to be quite a contrasty paper - certainly a grade ahead of Ilford MG IV. I have taken to using it for my general purpose RC paper over the Ilford MG as I just cant get on with it - MG IV Fiber is another matter though, and I like it very much.

hammy · Jan 23, 2007

Does anyone have a list of what the different Arista papers actually are?

Loren Sattler · Jan 23, 2007

Try Agfa

My favorite RC paper is Agfa 310 RC Glossy. It is available from B&H for $39.95 per 100 8 x 10's. Stock number is AGMCP81100G.

I have not kept up to date with Agfa's status. I know they closed down some time last year, not sure if B&H has existing stocks or perhaps someone has picked up the production. It is not packaged in the customary red box. It acts the same as I have been accustomed to except I notice a slight curl where before it was completely flat in the easel and tray.

Does anyone know the story of Agfa products?

JBrunner · Jan 23, 2007

I have made some very fine prints on Varycon. Based on my conversations with Per about it, blaze-on (who is a fine printer) bought some, and couldn't stand it- so there you go....

FWIW "leaves" is printed on Fotokemika Varycon.

dancqu · Jan 23, 2007

Loren Sattler said:
My favorite RC paper is Agfa 310 RC Glossy.
It is available from B&H for $39.95 per 100 8 x 10's.
Does anyone know the story of Agfa products?

Who owns "AGFA"? That is who owns the rights to
afix "AGFA" to products being produced. Perhaps the
paper is counterfeit. B&H may not be aware.

Perhaps some fellow secreted the emulsion formula
and made a deal with that rich Russian I've mentioned.
They then contracted with a coating plant. The lables
likely came from China. All hush-hush.

Coattail counterfeiters. Suppose it's possible? Dan

Lower cost papers: opinions, info?

hammy

aldevo

jim appleyard

kjsphoto

aldevo

chrisofwlp

kjsphoto

hammy

aldevo

jim appleyard

Roger Hicks

dancqu

fidget

pentaxuser

fidget

Photo Engineer

kjsphoto

Photo Engineer

aldevo

Matt5791

Matt5791

hammy

Loren Sattler

JBrunner

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