Low development tempatures

Tumbles · Dec 12, 2018

I've always let all my water and chemicals sit out over night, and adjust the development time to whatever the ambient temperature is. It's been colder than usual for awhile now, and the temperature has been staying around 16C. Could this cause problems? I'm using XTOL and Pyrocat. With Pyrocat I'm using minimal agitation, and the development times would be painfully long.

Kino · Dec 12, 2018

I assume there might be a sort of chemical reciprocity-like retardation of the development action with temperatures lower than recommended on the Xtol spec sheet.

I see 65 degrees F/ 18C as the lowest recommended temp using full strength developer.

You might want to try a water bath to warm everything to a higher temp.

Tumbles · Dec 12, 2018

Looking at the weather it looks like it's going to get colder from here on out. I think getting a sous vide machine is the best option. They've gotten so much cheaper compared to a few years ago.

Kino · Dec 12, 2018

Sounds like a plan!

markjwyatt · Dec 12, 2018

According to Stephen Anchell's The Darkroom Cookbook, reccomended developers for low temperature (down to 4 deg. C) are Kodak D-8, D-82+caustic, or SD-22 Amidol-Pyrocatechin. You would probably have to cook up a batch of any of these.

mshchem · Dec 12, 2018

I have a small heater, it's a oil filled radiator. Has a thermostat, my dear departed father used one to heat a small greenhouse. These are simple no fan. You can set it at 65-70F. I have the same problem my darkroom is at 60-63F. I started using a Jobo.
I have a nice heater but I'm too cheap to leave it plugged in.

glbeas · Dec 12, 2018

Some developing agents will go pretty much inactive under a certain temperature, about 65f I think. Ive read that phenidone is bad about that.

koraks · Dec 13, 2018

The response of developers to temperature changes tends to be non-linear. As a consequence, development times become very hard to predict especially if you deviate too far from the 20-24C range. Iirc, at 16C, hydroquinone starts to loose its activity almost entirely. Then again, it looks like OP's developers don't use hydroquinone so it may not be a problem. However, I'm not sure about the temperature linearity of eg pyrocatechin. I tend to use print developers at lower temperatures in winter, but print development is of course much less critical than film.

Tumbles · Dec 13, 2018

If I remember correctly, I've used Pyrocat to down around 17.5C with good results.

I've tried aquarium heaters in the past, but I just couldn't get the temperature to remain stable.

EdSawyer · Dec 13, 2018

I tried XTOL at around 15-16c and it was very inactive. My solution was to warm up the developer in a microwave right before processing, which worked well.

pentaxuser · Dec 13, 2018

Just curiosity on my part, Tumbles but do you mean that your developer and other chemicals stay outside at whatever the ambient temperature is all year round and do you do the dev,stop and fix process outside and the water you use is also kept outside?

I feel I must have got this wrong as the outside temperature must vary greatly between summer and winter and yet it sounds as if you cannot even bring sufficient quantities inside for room temperature development?

pentaxuser.

bernard_L · Dec 13, 2018

For small deviations (between 18°C and 22°C) from the standard 20°C, I use the Ilford compensation chart and/or table. This amounts to 10%/°C, even easy to do in one's head. I agree with Koracs above: probably a temperature change cannot be totally compensated by a time adjustment. And there are already so many causes for inconsistency in processing; so I try to stay close to 20°C.

wyofilm · Dec 13, 2018

As a rough(!) rule chemical reactions double in rate for each 10°C increase in temperature. The other way, too. A chemical reaction rate will be half for each 10°C decrease in temp.

Meyer Trioplan · Dec 13, 2018

On a similar school of thought, I actually shoot and develop very Expired film at very low EI ratngs and very low development temperatures with HC-110, developing at 2-3 degrees Celsius with often excellent results. Usual dilutions range between 1:63 and 1:100.

Kino · Dec 13, 2018

Meyer Trioplan said:
On a similar school of thought, I actually shoot and develop very Expired film at very low EI ratngs and very low development temperatures with HC-110, developing at 2-3 degrees Celsius with often excellent results. Usual dilutions range between 1:63 and 1:100.

20 hour stand develop? Are you one of those who stand develop in the refrigerator? I have heard of something like that, but have no direct experience with the process. Does this abate the fog?

Rick A · Dec 13, 2018

Really? How hard is it to temper mixing water to temperature for single shot developers. Geez, not hard at all. My DR stays at 65f most of the winter, I simply draw slightly warmer water and mix as close to 68f as possible. Most times I'm running at 69-70f, and use a water bath to bring chem temps up a few degrees if needed, usually only takes a few minutes for that..

mshchem · Dec 13, 2018

EdSawyer said:
I tried XTOL at around 15-16c and it was very inactive. My solution was to warm up the developer in a microwave right before processing, which worked well.

I've been using a microwave for ever. Just a few seconds. Huge time saver.

mshchem · Dec 13, 2018

Rick A said:
Really? How hard is it to temper mixing water to temperature for single shot developers. Geez, not hard at all. My DR stays at 65f most of the winter, I simply draw slightly warmer water and mix as close to 68f as possible. Most times I'm running at 69-70f, and use a water bath to bring chem temps up a few degrees if needed, usually only takes a few minutes for that..

You must be one of those rich guys that use fancy store bought liquid developer .

I use XTOL a microwave and a Jobo. I have a thermostatic mixing valve, I fill the Jobo with water at the desired temperature to save time.

Of course you would be done, sitting by the fire before I got started.. I like to make things as complicated as possible
Best Regards Mike

Rick A · Dec 13, 2018

mshchem said:
You must be one of those rich guys that use fancy store bought liquid developer .

I use XTOL a microwave and a Jobo. I have a thermostatic mixing valve, I fill the Jobo with water at the desired temperature to save time.

Of course you would be done, sitting by the fire before I got started.. I like to make things as complicated as possible
Best Regards Mike

PMK Pyro (mostly)and D-76 mixed to stock, dilution to working strength mixed at time of use.

Meyer Trioplan · Dec 13, 2018

Kino said:
20 hour stand develop? Are you one of those who stand develop in the refrigerator? I have heard of something like that, but have no direct experience with the process. Does this abate the fog?

Very much one of those guys. And it’s actually just a 30 minute refrigerated stand develop. Agitations roughly every 10 minutes Above is 1947 Ansco Supreme Nitrate Shot around an EI of 2 and “cold stand” developed with a slight tone added.

Kino · Dec 13, 2018

Very nice! I'll have to try that...

mshchem · Dec 13, 2018

Meyer Trioplan said:
View attachment 212877
Very much one of those guys. And it’s actually just a 30 minute refrigerated stand develop. Agitations roughly every 10 minutes Above is 1947 Ansco Supreme Nitrate Shot around an EI of 2 and “cold stand” developed with a slight tone added.

1947 Ansco, that's pretty cool. All of my Dad's Ansco negatives are curled, he stored the wound up in a can. Is this film curly? I'm going to have to try this.0

mshchem · Dec 13, 2018

Rick A said:
PMK Pyro (mostly)and D-76 mixed to stock, dilution to working strength mixed at time of use.

My apologies, I've never even tried pyro. You are correct about simple temperature control.

Tumbles · Dec 13, 2018

pentaxuser said:
Just curiosity on my part, Tumbles but do you mean that your developer and other chemicals stay outside at whatever the ambient temperature is all year round and do you do the dev,stop and fix process outside and the water you use is also kept outside?

I feel I must have got this wrong as the outside temperature must vary greatly between summer and winter and yet it sounds as if you cannot even bring sufficient quantities inside for room temperature development?

pentaxuser.

I don't leave my chemicals outside. I just leave the chemicals in the same place where I'm going to do the development. In the past if left my distilled water in a different part of the house and brought into my developing area, the temperature would start to shift. I'm picky about avoiding temperature shifts when I'm developing.

For Pyrocat with minimal agitation, this was particularly annoying. I'd take the temperature, calculate my times and get some more things ready, and then come back to find the temperature had shifted a bunch.

pentaxuser · Dec 14, 2018

Thanks for the reply, Tumbles. I am clear now about what you do. It may be that in colder weather and for developers that are particularly susceptible to inactivity or reduced activity below 18C , you might need to use a heater to boost the temp where you do the development or if that is inconvenient and expensive, then take the right quantities of chemicals into another part of the house prior to loading the film then do the processing in an area of the house where the ambient temp is higher.

Saying this is probably redundant as you would have thought of this anyway.

pentaxuser

Low development tempatures

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