Losing confidence in Ilford.

haliderollei · Mar 19, 2022

Hi there,

I’m losing confident in Ilford in being able to deliver professional film a little more every year now, specifically 120 film.

I’ve been using Ilford products for many years now and I never have had as many manufacturing defects as I did in the last 4 years; what the hell is going on?

I’ve had a professional shoot completely ruined by a failed batch of Ilford FP4, again!

Can someone tell me what the hell is going on? I’ve had bad FP4, Delta 400 and Pan F 50, multiple times for the last 4 years.

I made the switch from Kodak to Ilford for price reasons and I’m now starting to regret that decision.

Has anyone experienced the same thing from happening?

P.S I’ve had my money returned; but that does not solve anything.

AgX · Mar 19, 2022

see this post of mine too:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...ople-seen-affected.188878/page-4#post-2530410

Andrew Keedle · Mar 19, 2022

Presuming you are talking about 120 and the mottling issue? I generally only use Ilford for B&W and use FP4 and HP5 in 35mm and 120 and have had no issues whatsoever. They recently put out an announcement about the mottling and think they have resolved it.

otto.f · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
made the switch from Kodak to Ilford for price reasons and I’m now starting to regret that decision.

I wouldn’t be so sure that Kodak wouldn’t have come up with faults either in the meantime. My box of TriX 2003 4x5” was more consistent and reliable than my 2019 box in 2020.

Nitroplait · Mar 19, 2022

For a post like this to have value or even taken seriously, it would be good to have examples and more context. With OP's 14 posts and 3 month membership of Photrio it is unlikely many know who is talking.

radiant · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
P.S I’ve had my money returned; but that does not solve anything.

They know they have quality issues but this is only solution they offer.

Their strategy is "try your luck, if it is bad, we refund you with our films that have quality issues".

Seriously.

haliderollei · Mar 19, 2022

Nitroplait said:
For a post like this to have value or even taken seriously, it would be good to have examples and more context. With OP's 14 posts and 3 month membership of Photrio it is unlikely many know who is talking.

Ah yes, I’m sure part of a grand conspiracy by Kodak. I’ve been using Photrio for years without an account. When I’m
home I’ll provide batch numbers and photos of my 120 film to “proof” my point.

Nitroplait · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
Ah yes, I’m sure part of a grand conspiracy by Kodak. I’ve been using Photrio for years without an account. When I’m
home I’ll provide batch numbers to “proof” my point.

By all means. If you don't think my suggestion is reasonable, you are free to ignore it.
But just know that your original post, which I assume is posted in good faith - and I have not claimed it wasn't - will have limited value without more information. What problem(s)?, what does it look like?, which film format(s)?, and other data relevant for the fellow photographers you have set out to help with this post.
I don't know if batch numbers will help me, but others may think differently.

Alex Benjamin · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
Can someone tell me what the hell is going on? I’ve had bad FP4, Delta 400 and Pan F 50, multiple times for the last 4 years.

The difficulty with answering this question is that for every bad experience there seem to be quite a few good ones. Not that there's any doubt the bad experiences are real—they have been plenty documented—but it makes figuring out what to do, or say, about them an impossible task. I've gone from shooting a wide variety of films to shooting almost exclusively FP4+ and Pan F partly for economical reasons, but also because my results have been reliable.

faberryman · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
Hi there,

I’m losing confident in Ilford in being able to deliver professional film a little more every year now, specifically 120 film.

I’ve been using Ilford products for many years now and I never have had as many manufacturing defects as I did in the last 4 years; what the hell is going on?

I’ve had a professional shoot completely ruined by a failed batch of Ilford FP4, again!

Can someone tell me what the hell is going on? I’ve had bad FP4, Delta 400 and Pan F 50, multiple times for the last 4 years.

I made the switch from Kodak to Ilford for price reasons and I’m now starting to regret that decision.

Has anyone experienced the same thing from happening?

P.S I’ve had my money returned; but that does not solve anything.

I haven't had any problems with Ilford films (35mm, 120, 4x5), but certainly if you have experienced problems or lost confidence, you may want to try a different manufacturer.

radiant · Mar 19, 2022

faberryman said:
I haven't had any problems with Ilford films (35mm, 120, 4x5), but certainly if you have experienced problems or lost confidence, you may want to try a different manufacturer.

It doesn't prove anything if one person doesn't have problems. It is just a pure luck.

They publicly admit they have quality problems.

faberryman · Mar 19, 2022

radiant said:
It doesn't prove anything if one person doesn't have problems. It is just a pure luck.

They publicly admit they have quality problems.

I was simply responding to the OP's question.

haliderollei said:
Has anyone experienced the same thing from happening?

Alex Benjamin · Mar 19, 2022

radiant said:
It doesn't prove anything if one person doesn't have problems. It is just a pure luck.

They publicly admit they have quality problems.

Well, it's luck either way, isn't it? Either good luck or bad luck, since the problem isn't generalized.

They also recently admitted they've implemented changes that have improved the stability of their 120 films.

warden · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
Hi there,

I’m losing confident in Ilford in being able to deliver professional film a little more every year now, specifically 120 film.

I’ve been using Ilford products for many years now and I never have had as many manufacturing defects as I did in the last 4 years; what the hell is going on?

I’ve had a professional shoot completely ruined by a failed batch of Ilford FP4, again!

Can someone tell me what the hell is going on? I’ve had bad FP4, Delta 400 and Pan F 50, multiple times for the last 4 years.

I made the switch from Kodak to Ilford for price reasons and I’m now starting to regret that decision.

Has anyone experienced the same thing from happening?

P.S I’ve had my money returned; but that does not solve anything.

Sorry to hear of your problems. Were all of the issues with 120 film? That would be helpful to know. Also review the other threads on the issue and let us/them know if you think your storage of the films was somehow compromised. Providing example pics of the problem and batch numbers would be helpful too if you can. Thanks.

gone · Mar 19, 2022

All I can say is that you should consider yourself fortunate. Kodak products that I've purchased, like fixers and developers, were total losses. Their bad packaging ruined the contents. They then said they would refund my money, and didn't. That was a first, no company has ever lied to me like that, ever. So if you think switching to Kodak will help, you'll just be swapping one set of problems for others.

The upside of the Kodak experience consisting of lousy products and even lousier customer service led me to try new things, and now Foma 100 and 400 in 35mm are my go to films. They're just great once you get 'em dialed in. The 1 roll of Delta 100 I shot was incredible! Fantastic film.

There's some good photography products out there, you just have to make some changes, and you SHOULD, considering the issues you mentioned. If people would start raising hell and call these companies out on this, file lawsuits and make noise on the internet, that would cause some sales drops. That's the only thing these companies understand, there is no loyalty to customers.

JNP · Mar 19, 2022

@haliderollei Do you have a "hybrid" workflow at the moment? I would suggest you learn how to fix things using a computer and mouse, or learn how to use a "retouching desk" with fluids and/or leads. These methods for "fixing" problematic negatives and prints have been around since the mid eighteenth century and should be fully embraced. We have entered a brave new world where we will all have to adapt to new and/or old methods to rectify problems that have persisted for well over one hundred years. Material and employee shortages, supplychain bottlenecks and corporate buyouts and/or boondoggles are current. I am sorry that materials issues harmed your job, the only issues with materials I have were emulsion-edge-peel on Ilford MultiGrade Fibre Based Paper (only 5x7 size) perhaps eighteen years ago, I have since adapted. I trim my edges and/or use vintage papers and/or a wabi-sabi and/or hybrid workflow. If the shark stops swimming it sinks, we best swim.

Lachlan Young · Mar 19, 2022

Here's the implication of Ilford's statement (and Kodak's in the past about their wrapper offset issues): it's errors of storage either by distributors, retailers or end users. The manufacturers test for stability within their own stated storage guidelines, not for some retailer deciding it's OK to cook film at 30oC for a few days, then an end user stuffing them into a humid fridge. Yes the materials will withstand higher temperatures for a limited period, but not prolonged exposure. I once encountered a partly empty box of an FB paper (you don't need to know the brand, other than it will have been hardened with a vinyl ether or similar - ie very well hardened) that had been subjected to maybe around 30oC ambient in direct but slightly diffuse sunlight for a week or two - it was fine to use & didn't seem 'off' in terms of speed/ grade/ fog etc, but the surface was just fractionally tacky to the touch. Not a problem in a partly empty box of paper, but you can see that this could be a real problem in tightly spooled 120. In other words, Ilford is having to take steps to ensure that the won't-RTFM crowd can't mess things up.

NB23 · Mar 19, 2022

Fomapan 100: fantastic film.

please don’t forget, Kodak had taken tmax100 out of the market for roughly 2 years, following lots of problems with their backing paper...

pentaxuser · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
Hi there,

I’m losing confident in Ilford in being able to deliver professional film a little more every year now, specifically 120 film.
My question: So it is only 120 film?
I’ve been using Ilford products for many years now and I never have had as many manufacturing defects as I did in the last 4 years; what the hell is going on?
My question: How many defects in 4 years? What were the films that were defective and what were the specific defects?

I’ve had a professional shoot completely ruined by a failed batch of Ilford FP4, again!

My question: What was the specific problem or problems at the professional shoot and how many films in the batch? Was the whole film ruined or only some frames? Can we see some examples of the defects Was this a batch delivered to you at the same time, were all the films within the expiry date and from whom did you buy your film? Was the seller your usual seller and if so how many rolls have you bought from that seller and over what length of period?What has the seller said about this bad experience at the professional shoot?
Do you process your own film? If not which lab processes it and what does it say about the defects?

Can someone tell me what the hell is going on? I’ve had bad FP4, Delta 400 and Pan F 50, multiple times for the last 4 years.
My question: Are they any types of Ilford film that have not given any problems and what does multiple times mean, 5 times, 10 times etc
I made the switch from Kodak to Ilford for price reasons and I’m now starting to regret that decision.

Has anyone experienced the same thing from happening?

P.S I’ve had my money returned; but that does not solve anything.

My question: Money returned by whom and what did the returner of your money say about what might have caused the problem?

This sounds like a lot of questions and it is but until you can give us a lot more information we have no way to really help or make useful responses or so it seems to me

Finally have you given llford any details of your experience over the last 4 years and if so what was Ilford's response?

Thanks in anticipation of your answers

pentaxuser

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 19, 2022

Yet another of the universe's fundamental truths:

"One awshit wipes out a thousand attaboys."

Bill Burk · Mar 19, 2022

haliderollei said:
Ah yes, I’m sure part of a grand conspiracy by Kodak. I’ve been using Photrio for years without an account. When I’m
home I’ll provide batch numbers and photos of my 120 film to “proof” my point.

Not so much as “proof” to convince the doubters… more like a set of batch numbers for everyone to refer to.

It was extremely helpful to have the knowledge base of batches so we could avoid (or embrace), for instance, the TMY2 120 batch 0149.

BrianShaw · Mar 19, 2022

No matter what the specifics may be, it seems that professionals still using film have both risks and challenges to accept. The good old days are quite far away in the rear view mirror.

Tom Kershaw · Mar 19, 2022

faberryman said:
Could you bring us up to date with the current status of your lawsuit against Kodak for defective packaging of D76 and Dektol? Thanks.

I have experienced no quality control issues with the newer glossy paper Kodak 120 film. It is probably worth distinguishing between product (film) manufactured by Eastman Kodak in Rochester and all the various other 'Kodak' branded items made by other companies.

greg zinselmeier · Mar 19, 2022

Yup, there are no guarantees. Every day I have to accept mine and other peoples short comings. I certainly wish that wasn’t the case. I wish everything was perfect. All the time!! Perfect camera, perfect film, perfect composition, perfect development, etc . . . On and on

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 19, 2022

Sorry to hear this. I've used all those Ilford films over many years, and never had any issues, in all formats. Same with Kodak...other than price issue...

Losing confidence in Ilford.

haliderollei

AgX

Andrew Keedle

otto.f

Nitroplait

radiant

haliderollei

Nitroplait

Alex Benjamin

faberryman

radiant

faberryman

Alex Benjamin

warden

gone

JNP

Lachlan Young

NB23

pentaxuser

Nicholas Lindan

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Bill Burk

BrianShaw

Tom Kershaw

greg zinselmeier

Andrew O'Neill

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