loose take up spooling with 120 film

Samuel Hotton · Apr 15, 2009

On the RARE occasion, I will open a 120 roll film camera and find the finished take up spool is FAT with film and paper to the extent that the film is fogged on the edges.
This can happen with ANY of my cameras, Rollei TLR, Zeiss Ikonta, Graflex roll film backs, Fuji 690. It DOES NOT matter which camera. IT DOES NOT happen often, BUT when it happens, it ruins important frames with edge fog!
When I load a 120 roll film camera, I make extra sure that the tongue is fully engaged in the slot. I make extra sure that the film is square with the edges of the spool and WELL CENTERED. I place two fingers on the film and hold tension AS I wind it on to the start mark. At this point, I have a tight wrap! I close the back and use the camera as needed.
When the film is finished, I continue winding until the film and paper is wound on the take up spool. Open the back, I find that the film and paper is nicely and tightly wound, BUT on the VERY ODD occasion, it is NOT! I shut the back and go to a dark area, remove the film and put it in a light tight package until I get to a dark room.
I DOES NOT matter which brand of film I use, old thick base or new thin base emulsions. The ONLY item which I have not controlled is which take up spool I use. I use the one left over in the camera from the previous film.
Yes, I have been using 120 roll films since 1959, Yes, I've used metal take up spools and even wood take up spools. I'm STUMPED!!! I cannot predict this. AGAIN, I must say this is rare, BUT is does happen enough to ruin good images.
Anybody have a answer or suggestion to help this old man out. Film and time is too precious to waste nowdays.
With thanks,
Sam H.

Andrew Moxom · Apr 15, 2009

It's strange that it's occuring on all of your medium format cameras. I know they are older models and that film is thinner these days than the older cameras are used to. That said, it should not be happening. In my mind, the cameras may need a CLA to make sure movement of the spools and film transport is what it should be. Especially any springs involved with film tension during winding and especially on the take up spool.

I occasionally get this problem with my zero image 6x9 pinhole camera I bought used, but only with ACROS film. It's weird but it hoses up a whole reel whenever I use ACROS. Everything else I use in it is fine.

YMMV

archphoto · Apr 15, 2009

I think the problem is more with the lack of fiction the filmspool has.
Do you have any vertical play at the film-side ? You can ckeck this out with an empty spool.
If it has, try some kind of shimming, preferably with a nylon washer or so.

Peter

Toffle · Apr 15, 2009

This is odd... I have never seen this happen on any of my cameras. (and one of them is a POS Holga) From what you describe, you are going about it right, trying to isolate the problem. Question.. do you remove the film immediately after shooting or does it sit in the camera for some time? It really shouldn't make much difference, but in theory, the spool could loosen a bit if it is left in the camera. (Just the other day, I went to load my GS-1 for the first time in months, only to find a finished roll in the back.... still tightly wound.)

If you ever identify/solve this problem, let us know.

Regards,

Akki14 · Apr 15, 2009

When I have had this problem(in an ilford sporti), the take up spool was misaligned (one tiny "stop" that swung out the bottom half of the take up spool holding was missing so it was going into the camera too far to ensure proper rolling) OR there's not enough tension in the opposite spool... the one with all the film. My Holga has this problem and it's solved by jamming a folded over bit of film box underneath the left-hand spool before closing it up.

BrianShaw · Apr 15, 2009

Andrew Moxom said:
It's strange that it's occuring on all of your medium format cameras. ... In my mind, the cameras may need a CLA to make sure movement of the spools and film transport is what it should be. Especially any springs involved with film tension during winding and especially on the take up spool.

I've only exeprienced this once... on a Rolleicord in which the tension/counter wheel was gummed up and not turning correctly - causing the paper backing to crinkle and bunch up on one edge. Once cleaned, the camera performed flawlessly in this respect for more than a decade.

I, too, find it odd that it's happening to you on multiple cameras. Perhaps you have bad photographic karma and should consider another hobby.

ic-racer · Apr 15, 2009

Difficult problem to diagnose. Obviously you have quite a bit of experience with rollfilm. I sometimes wonder about if there are quantamechanic (Heisenburg uncertainty) limits to what one can understand about a mechanical system with stocastic or sporadic behavior, like you described If such were the case it would make it less painful when you say "I give up"

Christopher Walrath · Apr 15, 2009

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

Impossible to say but if this happens in multiple and different cameras thenI think we could rule out the cameras themselves. Your film is your one constant. And you are the other. I don't and can't know precisely what is going on but I would opt for either film storage, handling, or some sort of pilot error.

Rick A · Apr 15, 2009

Have you checked the tension on the pressure finger that rests against the take up reel? Over the years it may have lost some of its springiness, and maybe just tweaking it a bit will help. Also maybe only winding the film until it just clears the end, and NOT giving it a few extra turns, as this may be allowing the film to loosen on the spool.

Christopher Walrath · Apr 15, 2009

Samuel Hotton said:
Rollei TLR, Zeiss Ikonta, Graflex roll film backs, Fuji 690

That is just too wide a variety to simply be each and every camera.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 15, 2009

Andrew Moxom said:
In my mind, the cameras may need a CLA to make sure movement of the spools and film transport is what it should be. Especially any springs involved with film tension during winding and especially on the take up spool.

I occasionally get this problem with my zero image 6x9 pinhole camera I bought used, but only with ACROS film. It's weird but it hoses up a whole reel whenever I use ACROS. Everything else I use in it is fine.

YMMV

Andrew, the need for a CLA is a possibility!
I've only shot 4 rolls of Acros one of which was in my Zero 6x9. No problems in Zero or other cameras, strange.
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 15, 2009

archphoto said:
I think the problem is more with the lack of fiction the filmspool has.
Do you have any vertical play at the film-side ? You can ckeck this out with an empty spool.

Peter

I think you might have something there, as several of the older cameras have a lack of friction on the supply side.
NO vertical play to speak of found on supply side.
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 15, 2009

Toffle said:
Question.. do you remove the film immediately after shooting or does it sit in the camera for some time?

Regards,

I remove the film as soon as it is finished, at most within 1 hour.
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 15, 2009

Akki14 said:
there's not enough tension in the opposite spool... the one with all the film.

I think this may be a problem on several of my cameras, soft springs without much tension.
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 15, 2009

BrianShaw said:
I've only exeprienced this once... on a Rolleicord in which the tension/counter wheel was gummed up and not turning correctly - causing the paper backing to crinkle and bunch up on one edge. Once cleaned, the camera performed flawlessly in this respect for more than a decade.

I, too, find it odd that it's happening to you on multiple cameras. Perhaps you have bad photographic karma and should consider another hobby.

Good evening Brian, I myself find this interesting, thus I write to perhaps the broadest data base of analog photographers left on this planet. You are fortunate to have only had this experience once with your Rolleicord. Perhaps it is the quantity of film that you shoot. During the 1980s, I used to expose 40,000+ exposures (by actual count) per year through a Rolleiflex. By this time and quantity the Rolleiflex would go back to the factory for overhaul and another would be supplied to me for my work. And so it went year after year. Like I said this "Fat spool syndrome" was rare and occasoinal, YET at the quantity I burned film it was annoying. Now that I am retired, I tend to make every frame count, and when it occurs it is MORE than annoying. I THINK is might have to do with the take up spool tolerances. Which I will put to the test by using the spools that run the smoothest in the particular cameras. Silly perhaps, BUT it is the ONE thing I have not controlled. As for bad Karma, well thats a topic that will conjur stories you would have had to be there to believe. As for taking up another hobby, hmm, photography has never been a hobby, it has been my life, my blood, my income, my survival. But NEVER a hobby.
All the best,
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 15, 2009

Christopher Walrath; Impossible to say but if this happens in multiple and different cameras thenI think we could rule out the cameras themselves. (SAM) Supply and or takeup spring tension is a possibility. Your film is your one constant. And you are the other. (SAM) I question the spools said:
(SAM) This is possible, very possible. Just not sure what...

all the best,
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 16, 2009

ralnphot said:
Have you checked the tension on the pressure finger that rests against the take up reel?

(SAM) Some of the pressure fingers are perhaps a touch soft in tension.

Also maybe only winding the film until it just clears the end, and NOT giving it a few extra turns, as this may be allowing the film to loosen on the spool.

(SAM) Great idea, BUT several days ago I was using a Voigtlander Bessa recently overhauled and tweaked by Jurgen (Certo6). It ALWAYS works perfectly Hmmm! By the 6th frame it became stiff to advance, by the 7th frame I did not want to advance it further and had to take it into the dark room to down load. I was using Ilford XP2. I also had the "Fat spool syndrome" with a Welta with XP2 film 6 months ago. A year before that my Fuji GW690III had a fat spool. So it can be "Fat" and bind up BEFORE the end of the film is reached. About the ONLY camera I have not had this problem with is my Mamiya 6. But I don't use it very much, I don't like it because it has batteries.
All the best,
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 16, 2009

One of the descriptions I must add is that these spools are TIGHTLY wound when I take them from the camera. They are NOT LOOSE.

You CANNOT take the tongue and "Just pull it tight". It is ALREADY TIGHT. It is just FAT.

This means to me that it is loose down near the core, NOT toward the end of the film. The loose core is taking up the bulk of the space.

PERHAPS, it the spring finger on the takeup is not holding it tight as the film advances.

With thanks,
Sam H.

Samuel Hotton · Apr 16, 2009

ic-racer said:
Difficult problem to diagnose.

(SAM) Good evening ic-racer, yes a most perplexing problem though RARE, thank goodness.

I sometimes wonder about if there are quantamechanic (Heisenburg uncertainty) limits to what one can understand about a mechanical system with stocastic or sporadic behavior, like you described

(SAM) This is most likely correct in my thinking. I too believe that uncertainty IS a property of the world. Werner Heisenberg was brilliant.

If such were the case it would make it less painful when you say "I give up"

(SAM) To say I give up, to me personally means an end to being curious and trying to overcome uncertainty and chance. I've asked this question to many of my peers which are now retired and gone their different ways or have died. None have had an answer. It was only because of my son saying "Why don't you ask the folks on APUG this question". A brilliant idea considering the largest surviving and widest spread, most diverse collection of analog camera users on the planet Earth.

Perhaps the answer is it is caused by chance, an uncertainty of the world.
Many thanks,
Sam H.

paul ron · Apr 19, 2009

Maybe the brand of film you are using has a thinner paper backing than most. There are generally springs, SS tab with a roller on it sitting just under the spool that is responsable for applying tension on he spools. If you bend em up a slight bit it will perhaps hold your spools tighter n cure your problem. Otherwise I sugest having all your cameras checked n maintained. When was the last shop visit?

How old are "all" of your cameras? How much do you use them? All contributing factors. Pro equipment needs attention and that is why these cameras were never common with amatures, it cost to much to maintain. If you can't afford the tune ups, you shouldn't buy the car.

BrianShaw · Apr 19, 2009

Samuel Hotton said:
You are fortunate to have only had this experience once with your Rolleicord. Perhaps it is the quantity of film that you shoot. During the 1980s, I used to expose 40,000+ exposures (by actual count) per year through a Rolleiflex. By this time and quantity the Rolleiflex would go back to the factory for overhaul and another would be supplied to me for my work. And so it went year after year. Like I said this "Fat spool syndrome" was rare and occasoinal, YET at the quantity I burned film it was annoying.

Hi Sam. You have me beat on film usage... by a country mile! In my situation I could tell be the look of the film that the camera needed repair so when I saw the problem I did what you suggest -- send the camera for an overhaul... at the first occasion.

I totally understand your feeling that every shot should (or needs to) count. This fat-spool syndrome is a real problem, not an inconvenience. I somehow missed the fact that the film on the spool is tight. That makes the situation even odder.

I've never paid much attention to the details of the differences between spools. It is an interesting theory. I look forward to learning more!

Re: photography as hobby vs livelihood... I thought you were retired (hee hee)... aren't you supposed to be playing bingo, cribbage and sitting on the porch each morning with a cup of coffee and the newspaper watching all the rest of us chumps go to work every morning?

loose take up spooling with 120 film

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