Looking to improve my exposure method and get better negatives...

avizzini said:

I shoot mostly Delta 400 (when I don't want to bring along a tripod) and Delta 100. I use it at box speed and develop at Ilford recommended times using DDX. I invert the tank 4 times every minute for 10 seconds.

I feel like my negativs lack contrast at times. They are usually good to scan but their flatness feels a bit more problematic sometimes when making darkroom prints. I sometimes have to add a good bit of contrast to get what I want and at that point the print loses tones and gets harsher grain. Nothing crazy bad but, there's room for improvement. I usualy do split grade printing, if this makes a difference.

At the moment I’m using an iPhone metering app that functions as a reflective light meter getting an average of the entire scene. I try to meter the scene taking into account what it’s pointed at so that it’s looking at shadows, mid tones, and highlights so that it’s a good average… Should I avoid the sky altogether when metering this way?

Most of the time I’m use a light red filter (#25). I used to add 2 stops of exposure for this but, I decided to go with 3 when using the red filter. It seems to have helped a bit. When I’m in bright areas or scenes with a lot of snow, I’ll add 1-2 stops on top of what the meter is giving me.

What is a good straightforward way to meter landscapes when working with roll film (120). As I understand it, methods such as the Zone System are not as practical with roll film as you can’t develop each negative uniquely and especially for landscape where each scene being photographed can vary a lot.

Let me know if either of these scenarios would give me better results:

Scenario 1

With the adage « Meter for the shadows develop for the highlights… » can this be translated when shooting roll film where I can’t differentiate development for each image?

Say I’m using Delta 400 @ F16 and I spot meter important shadows and I get a shutter speed of 1/30s. Since this would give me « grayish » shadows, I would actually shoot it at F16 for 1/250s or 1/500s taking them down 2 - 3 stops. At this point if I develop normally would I get better negatives more often than if I just took an overall reflective average? Would this give me bad highlights since I can’t really do much in development for my highlights due to changing lighting conditions?

Scenario 2

I also see that some recommend not shooting the film at box speed but rather slower. In the case of Delta 400 would I treat it as ISO 320 or even 200? What about Delta 100, treat it like 80 or 50?

Assuming I rate Delta 400 at 320 would I still develop it normally as if I were shooting it at 400 (8 mins with DDX) or would I pull it?

...

I’m not looking for perfection just improvements on what I’m currently doing. I don’t want to get too lost in the technical details and theory. Just some straightforward suggestions that might help.

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trendland said:

From my impression you are with less experience for photography - right!
So my advice is the following :
1) forget your IPhone for metering Film exposure!
2) forget metering in general with bw film!
3) try to find out the secrets of messurement light and metering exposore beginning next year!

So use your camera automatic ! But listen what camera is using aperature and speed!
For landscape with normal background and 1/3 framed normal sky the camera has enough
precision to meter correct with bw film!
If your films are from low contrast you may use different E.I ( for example E.I. ISO 200 with your
ISO 400 box speed film)!
That would end in push development (1E.V. = 1 stop)!
Pushing films do higher contrast normaly!
But before that you may correct workflow from development!

OK what to do with messurements of your camera into direction of sunlight?
(You should avoid it btw) - you have to correct exposure (the electronic indicates much light and change aperature to less speed much too much)
The same is with sky at 2/3 framing and a dark foreground! So I would avoid the next time to shot
in this way and therefore you may first calibrate contrast!
Later you have to note correction you made with highlighted skys aso. and try to win experience!

In that way : camera indicates 5.6 500sec. but you know shot is in direction of sun!
You correct your overdriven camera values in direction of +1 stop! And have a look if it was enough or it could be more or it was too much! A series of 3exposures can help much for the first time!
And next year if you are from more experience you will begin to messure with lightmeter or spotmeter! (you will need to know the basics from good experience first)

with regards

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jnantz said:

Hi avvizzini

What I would suggest is what I do ...
Since your negatives lack contrast, pay attention to what your meter says and notice the light. Think of the diagram in the film box that gives the rules for "Sunny 16" and change the name to "Sunny 11 " and check to see if it makes sense the way your light meter is reading the scene ( this website might be helpful too >> http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm ) . ALSO bracket a little bit since the meter says f22 expose 3 frames each 1 stop over, so 16, 11, 8 ). I am not familiar with your developing methods, I usually agitate however many inversions it takes for the 1st minute and then however many inverstions it takes for 10 seconds every minute after that. Shoot a couple of rolls of film like this .. and the first roll develop exactly as whatever chart it is your are following says to develop it, then do a 2nd roll developed for 30% more and the 3rd one for 30 % less time ... make a contact sheet of the 3 rolls of negatives or scan them the way you do, and compare the images ... and decide which you like the best, and then go out and expose the whole roll like that / expose and develop it the way you liked best ... Personally ( from experience ) I i never had enough exposure when I exposed at box speed, now I always shoot at maybe half box speed so I am at least 1 stop over; and I never developed my film enough when I processed it at the recommended times, now I always over develop 30% but that's me. The other thing that might be going on is you are using a developer that might not build up contrast like other developers. I had this trouble whenever I used Xtol. If you are using Xtol ( or one of its vit c cousins like Caffenol C ) use something else, maybe a middle of the road developer like D76 and it might give you better contrast.

GOOD LUCK !
John

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pentaxuser said:

You might be able to help us help you if you took a digital photo of the "offending negatives" so we could look at them. From these we can begin to ask the right questions or even make suggestions. As things stand you will get plenty of suggestions with which to "machine gun " the problem rather than getting suggestions and answers that are able to home in on the issue. The problem with a machine gun is that it can get the job done but waste an awful lot of bullets in the process

In the meantime you might want to look at pictures of negatives where there is a series covering underexposure with the 3 stages of development ( under correct and over) then correct exposure with same 3 stages and finally overexposure with those 3 stages so 9 negatives. Google The Online Darkroom then read the section of "How to Read A Negative" It is a site based in the U.K. but there are others of course

pentaxuser

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1. Do not meter the sky! Leave the sky out of the light reading.
2. The R25 filter factor is three f/stop or eight times longer exposure [23 = 8]
3. Use box speed, pick the darkest area that you want detail to show and take a reading of that area. That reading is Zone 2 or Zone 3, adjust 3 or 2 f/stops, respectively, for the light setting [Zone 5].

pentaxuser said:

Thanks for the pictures. I think you are saying that in the case of each negative, other than sample 1 you have made 2 prints of each negative. It looks to me as if one print may be too soft a grade and one too hard i.e. too many greys in one and not enough in the other but a lot of viewers might prefer the harder graded print. A lot of people expect to see snow as close to a burnt-out white as this when it is pristine snow and for the sake of that, your "blacks" may have to be a little too black and lacking in some detail.

If I saw both prints on a wall from say 10 feet I'd be initially attracted to the higher contrast one and only on closer examination might I wonder if there wasn't an "in between" grade that helps with detail in the "blacks" and yet keeps some detail in the highlights.

It might be that intrinsically high contrast scenes with pristine snow will always be difficult to print without quite a bit of burning and dodging.

I probably have a limited ability to read negatives compared to others here who will hopefully comment but In my opinion your exposure settings and development process are fine i.e. certainly no need to change developer or your processing regime and as I said, high mountain snow scenes are far from the easiest to capture. A lot of other kinds of scenes may well result in negatives that are easier to straight print.

If I were you, I'd choose an easier scene on which to experiment with film speeds but as John suggested, I think, I'd be tempted to try 3 shots of say at least one scene at box speed, 320 and 250. You might try two scenes or even three. It's still only just over half a roll. Stick to the same development time that Ilford recommends for 400 and look at them under a loupe on a light box if possible

I think you may find that the improvement at both 320 and 250 is marginal in terms of shadow detail but that is only my assumption based on my reading of your negatives so far. It might be enough of an improvement to make it worthwhile. Only a trial will tell.


pentaxuser

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Sirius Glass said:

1. Do not meter the sky! Leave the sky out of the light reading.
2. The R25 filter factor is three f/stop or eight times longer exposure [23 = 8]
3. Use box speed, pick the darkest area that you want detail to show and take a reading of that area. That reading is Zone 2 or Zone 3, adjust 3 or 2 f/stops, respectively, for the light setting [Zone 5].

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jimjm said:

Generally, I won't use a red filter for landscapes unless I'm really trying to darken a blue sky and make the clouds look more dramatic, or looking for a specific effect based on the scene. You may be better off using a orange or yellow filter, or no filter at all. If you're using red to try to get more contrast in your shots, this may be introducing some unintended effects or increasing contrast when you don't need to.

Overall, your negs look good and appear to be sufficiently exposed - maybe a bit contrasty however. It appears most of these scenes already have harsh direct lighting, and I've always found that snow scenes or shots at altitude can be a challenge. Your final prints in samples 3, 4 & 5 look like your shadows have started blocking up in the trees, rocks, etc. This may have been a result of your attempt to get "adequate" contrast in the print. Unless this is your intention, I would selectively dodge these areas, or print at an overall lower grade and then burn in the highlights if needed.

I always shoot B/W film about 1 stop overexposed as I find it easier to print negs that are bit denser. Usually I use normal development time, unless it's a contrasty scene and then I may cut the development time about 10-15%. There are no hard and fast rules on this - just try some different methods and use what works best for you.

This is one of the first shots I took when I realized the benefits (in my eye) of overexposing slightly. I remember the negs looked a bit too dense when I first looked at them, but all the images seemed to print easily. I was able to get the shadows nice and deep without losing the detail I wanted to keep. I just metered off a nearby gray wall that was the same tone as the statue and facing the same direction as the front of the statue. If I had just pointed the meter straight up at the scene, I would have underexposed the shot due to the bright sky. I use a small handheld reflected meter with an option for incident metering, and it's worked well in many different situations. I've made 11x14 prints from this 35mm neg and grain is hardly noticable.

TMax100, D-76 1:1, grade #3 on Ilford MG paper

View attachment 222648

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Kodachromeguy said:

Can I add a suggestion? Please use a real light meter. I do not know about the spectral response of the iPhone or how the app processes the data. Try using your Mamiya prism finder with its meter.

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avizzini said:

I'm new-ish to film, I've been doing it for a year or more now. I've gone through about 50 rolls. I've been shooting with digital as a hobby for 7 or so years.

I can't forget about metering because the camera doesn't have an automatic mode. It's a Mamiya 645 1000s.

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avizzini said:

I'm confusd or miss understanding something, when you talk about using the film at EI 200. If meter the film for 200, wouldn't I want to pull development?

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TheFlyingCamera said:

For those bashing the light meter app in the iPhone - I have compared it against my Sekonic 408 and my Minolta SpotMeter F (two very high quality handheld light meters) and it has been within 1/10th of a stop of both of them under a wide range of lighting conditions. Just because something is digital doesn't mean it is inherently untrustworthy. That said, do NOT use an in-camera meter from a digital camera - those meters are set for the sensor in the camera in question, which is often off of true ISO by as much as 1 1/2 stops over or under. That varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from model to model.

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winger said:

Not necessarily. When you decide to shoot at something other than the box speed, you can still develop at the regular times. Personally, I shoot Delta400 at 320, but develop at about the norm. I shoot Delta100 at 80 and develop at the norm as well. But that's me. And I use an incident meter, not a reflective one. It would be good for you to bracket when you shoot and keep track of what the meter reading was and which shot it is so that you can decide which frame is the way you wanted it. Develop all at the standard time for the temperature.

What you're seeing in the printing may be the issue of printing rather than the exposing of the negative. It's easier to add contrast than it is to remove it. ie. if your negative seems flat, then you can still make a fairly punchy print. If your neg is contrasty, you won't have detail in either the highlights or the shadows (or, worse, both) no matter what you do in printing. You didn't say if you're using multigrade paper and how you're doing the printing (time in developer, etc..). You don't have exactly where in the US you are, but if there's a Photrio-er near you who knows how to print well, maybe you can set up a mini class with them? I know I'd be willing to go over stuff in person with anyone near me learning how to print.

+ everything MattKing said.

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runswithsizzers said:

I am presently taking a medium format photography class at a local university. We use Mamiya C220 cameras, Sekonic L308s light meters, and Ilford HP5 Plus film. Standard class procedure is to set the light meter to one-half of box ISO (meter at ISO 200 vs. Ilford's recommended 400). That is we "overexpose" by one stop (relative to Ilford's box film speed).

Recommended beginner metering method is to take a reflected reading from a gray card held in the same light as the subject. Later we learned how to meter a Zone III shadow and then add two stops.

At development we use either Kodak D-76 at 1+1, or Compard R09 One Shot rodinal at 1+50 - 12 minutes either way at 68*F/20*C. Ilford's data sheet and several other sources recommend 11 minutes for this combination of film and developer.

When I asked the instructor why we overexpose and overdevelop, she said it was because many students were needing to use higher contrast filters (#3) when printing. With this combination most prints are now being made with #2 or #2-1/2 contrast filters, while still getting good shadow detail.

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trendland said:

From my impression you are with less experience for photography - right!
So my advice is the following :
1) forget your IPhone for metering Film exposure!
2) forget metering in general with bw film!
3) try to find out the secrets of messurement light and metering exposore beginning next year!

So use your camera automatic ! But listen what camera is using aperature and speed!
For landscape with normal background and 1/3 framed normal sky the camera has enough
precision to meter correct with bw film!
If your films are from low contrast you may use different E.I ( for example E.I. ISO 200 with your
ISO 400 box speed film)!
That would end in push development (1E.V. = 1 stop)!
Pushing films do higher contrast normaly!
But before that you may correct workflow from development!

OK what to do with messurements of your camera into direction of sunlight?
(You should avoid it btw) - you have to correct exposure (the electronic indicates much light and change aperature to less speed much too much)
The same is with sky at 2/3 framing and a dark foreground! So I would avoid the next time to shot
in this way and therefore you may first calibrate contrast!
Later you have to note correction you made with highlighted skys aso. and try to win experience!

In that way : camera indicates 5.6 500sec. but you know shot is in direction of sun!
You correct your overdriven camera values in direction of +1 stop! And have a look if it was enough or it could be more or it was too much! A series of 3exposures can help much for the first time!
And next year if you are from more experience you will begin to messure with lightmeter or spotmeter! (you will need to know the basics from good experience first)

with regards

Click to expand...

avizzini said:

I'm new-ish to film, I've been doing it for a year or more now. I've gone through about 50 rolls. I've been shooting with digital as a hobby for 7 or so years.


Worked: Clean grain, I like the tones, not too had to print nicely (in my opinion)
Later Afternoon, sunny - Delta 100 @ 100 F32 1s (no filter)
Sample 1 Photos (No darkroom print just yet)

Mid Afternoon, mostly sunny - Delta 400 @ 400 [Lost the settings on this one] (Red Filter #25 - 3 Stops added, Snow 2-3 Stops Added)
Sample 2 Photos

Mid morning, partly cloudy - Delta 400 @ 400 F16 1/60 (Red Filter #25 - 2 Stops added)
Sample 3 Photos

Kind of Worked: Not too grainy (but some), I like the tones for the most part, not too hard to print (in my opinion)
Early Sunset, mostly sunny - Delta 400 @ 400 F8 1/60 (Red Filter #25 - 3 Stops added)
Sample 4 Photos

Didn't Work as Intended: Really Grainy and harsh looking, hard to print (in my opinion)
Early Morning, partly cloudy - Delta 400 @ 400 F16 1/15 (Red Filter #25 - 3 Stops Added, Snow 2 Stops Added)
Sample 5 Photos

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John M Austin said:

Nicely done Trendland!

You write your prose in a poetic way and I kinda dig it now.

Oh and, factually, I'm with you man.

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