Looking for some Wollensak lens information, 2" Anastigmat or 85mm Velostigmat?

Wolfram Malukker · Aug 20, 2024

So I'm playing with a little Marvel/Acro 127 camera, and it came equipped with a Wollensak "2 Inch" F/3.5 Anastigmat uncoated lens, in an "Marvel" branded Alphax Jr. shutter. It's a half-frame 127 camera, but at some point in the past the film plane has had a big chip knocked out of it. I figure I can machine out the chip and get a 4x4cm frame to square up, and if that doesn't clean up the broken area, there is probably enough room for a standard 127 frame.

The Wollensak 2" lens however, does not even fully cover the 3x4cm original frame size, let alone the 3-and-a-bit x 4cm frame size of the chipped area.

Does anyone here have a Wollensak 85mm F3.5 Velostigmat that they could check the lens cell thread sizes on? Will it fit into the Alphax Jr shutter? They seem to be the most common lens that has both a greater image circle and good availability.

The Alphax Jr shutter mostly works-it's just a bit dirty so sometimes will hang open. I'll take a stab at cleaning it if I can find a lens that will cover 4x4 or 4x6cm.

nosmok · Aug 20, 2024

Hmm, 5cm would be the "normal" lens size for the 3x4-on-127 format (it's the exact diagonal) , so if it was the original lens and it is working correctly, it oughta be fine. Maybe check the aperture for roundness (maybe it is missing a blade) and try it stopped down if it seems intact-- on some old cameras, the wide-open apertures were for a "portrait" look, where the edges would be dark (and the center might be a touch soft) to emphasize the face within.

Wolfram Malukker · Aug 20, 2024

That is true-however just checking with a ground glass plate in the film mask area, the corners are very dark until it's stopped down to F18-then they're just shaded. All the examples images taken with this model camera show the same thing-admittedly, there are not many on the internet that can be positively tied to this camera model! (Acro Model R or Sears Marvel)

The bigger issue is the broken mask, it's actually slightly too big to grind out to 4x4cm. I don't have the broken piece, or I'd just glue it back in place. I could try to mold in some epoxy putty, though.

The only reason to bother with it is that it's got a fairly accurate uncoupled rangefinder built in. Other than that, it's almost identical to a Detrola 3x4cm camera.

By blowing the dirt out of the shutter, and putting needlepoint touches of oil on the gear pivots, it now seems fairly reliable.

Dan Daniel · Aug 20, 2024

I'm a little confused. Typical lens for 127 film is a 60mm, not 50mm or 2 inches. Funny that the original would be stretched out that much.

On many 127 cameras, the shutter is a Compur #00 or equivalent. Have you looked at a Wollensak shutter on 120 film TLRs to see if the same size shutter was used? Here's a chart of assorted Alphax shutter sizes-

Shutter Specs

Alphax and Betax Shutter Specifications Shutter SizeMax. Diaphragm(mm) Lens Mount Thread (in x tpi) Flange Mount Thread (in x tpi)Overall Thickness (mm)Cable releasethrust required (in) &…

alphaxbetax.com

And if you are going to hack things together, you could probably hack into place a Copal from a Yashica 44 or even a larger Wollensak from a Ciro-Flex is that is what works out. Now you will have issues with lens spacing from film plane, but not knowing the camera under consideration, this might be easily resolved.

AnselMortensen · Aug 20, 2024

My Ciro-Flex uses an 85mm f/3.5 lens in an Alphax shutter...not sure if it's an Alphax Jr. or not..

Wolfram Malukker · Aug 20, 2024

Dan Daniel said:
I'm a little confused. Typical lens for 127 film is a 60mm, not 50mm or 2 inches. Funny that the original would be stretched out that much.

On many 127 cameras, the shutter is a Compur #00 or equivalent. Have you looked at a Wollensak shutter on 120 film TLRs to see if the same size shutter was used? Here's a chart of assorted Alphax shutter sizes-

Shutter Specs

Alphax and Betax Shutter Specifications Shutter SizeMax. Diaphragm(mm) Lens Mount Thread (in x tpi) Flange Mount Thread (in x tpi)Overall Thickness (mm)Cable releasethrust required (in) &…

alphaxbetax.com

And if you are going to hack things together, you could probably hack into place a Copal from a Yashica 44 or even a larger Wollensak from a Ciro-Flex is that is what works out. Now you will have issues with lens spacing from film plane, but not knowing the camera under consideration, this might be easily resolved.

That would be the case for a 4x4 or 4x6.5cm "full frame" 127 camera, but this is a half-frame type. The Alphax Jr. or Alphax #0 shutter is pretty small, but since it's not coupled to anything it could be easily changed.

So far, in my just a few hours of looking, all catalogs I have found list the Wollensak Anastigmat, Velostigmat, and Raptar 50mm or 2" lenses, at F/3.5 and F/4.5, all rated for an image size of 1" x 1.5", so not surprising that they may show some dark corners on a 1.18" x 1.57" negative, they are right on the edge there.

I've got the camera back together now, and I have some Agfacolor CNS 127 that I won't feel bad about using to test a camera-I only got it for the spools and papers. I'll find out if the dark corners really bother me or not.

As for the Ciro-flex, I'm pretty sure that at least one ieteration had an 85mm F/3.5 in an Alphax Jr. That's the most likely (and probably least costly!) lens that I might find detached from a usable camera. I *know* that one will cover 4x6.5cm, so there's an option.

Dan Fromm · Aug 20, 2024

Hmm. OP, I just looked y'r camera up. It's far from clear that an 85 mm lens will focus to infinity on it, let alone closer.

Wolfram Malukker · Aug 20, 2024

I got out the measuring sticks this evening, the distance from film plane to shutter mounting plate (from the front surface of the film to the front surface of the helicoid) is 46.3mm at the infinity focus mark on the helicoid. The helicoid bolts on with four screws, so if the distance needs to increase that's an easy fix. It's not so easy to make this distance shorter. I could just make an M58 threaded plate and bolt on the front, then mount a 65mm Mamiya TLR that fits my Ricoh TLS panoramic conversion camera.

I teach machine tool and engineering at the local high schools, and I originally bought this camera to learn how the rangefinder works and maybe adapt the rangefinder design into a 3D printer project for students. My hope is that it will incorporate some trigonometry and make them actually do some design work, instead of just copying what they see on the internet. I've already drawn the simple rangefinder and read up a little on how they're supposed to work so we can try one later this year.

Dan Daniel · Aug 20, 2024

If you ever get to making coupled rangefinder systems, or even developing cams for things press cameras with rangefinders, it'd be great if you could pop in and give a little overview.

Wolfram Malukker · Aug 20, 2024

I might. The goal for students is to set up and build a simple 3d-printed two-mirror rangefinder-which the Marvel/Acro camera has. Supposedly this camera is pretty rare so I'm unlikely to do anything other than try to repair the film mask area and put it back together, even after cleaning and greasing the helicoid it's still extremely stiff and grabby, so it's not going to be nice to actually use. The bakelite body might have warped or it might just have too much taper in the bore that the helicoid sits in, but I am not going to risk breaking the whole thing to bits just to smooth it up enough to enjoy using it.

Wolfram Malukker · Aug 28, 2024

Got this little camera back together and while the helicoid is still stiff, it's a bit smoother. It has about 2mm of slop in it, so I need to figure that out. I'm thinking it either needs a shim somewhere or the two bronze bushings that the helicoid rides on may be worn down, although they didn't appear to be when I had it apart.

I was able to use a pin vise and some wire drills to put in some steel wire where the big chip was in the film plane, and machined a steel block to set in and support the carbon-filled epoxy while it cured. A little filing later and the 3x4cm frame is fixed.

The shutter occasionally still trips at the fastest speed, regardless of the setting. I need to research this a bit more, maybe I can fix it. I've got a spool of Rerapan 400, so it may not matter in that case.

Looking for some Wollensak lens information, 2" Anastigmat or 85mm Velostigmat?

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