Looking for more before&after print examples

Roy Keane · Feb 21, 2022

I'm sure most of us have seen Rolfe Horn's straight-print-to-final-interpretation notes on his site - I'm looking for similar resources on the web. I learn a lot from them (especially in how much possibility might exist in a negative that seems, at first, to be nothing special).

Anyone have any similar web resources along these lines? I'd love to see more of them.

M Carter · Feb 21, 2022

Here's my one lonely blog post... goes through this print:

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2022

In the above example the toned pic also seems to have improved definition/sharpness as well as defined clouds in the sky. Oh and the little matter of the fence disappearing. How was all of this achieved?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Roy Keane · Feb 21, 2022

M Carter said:
Here's my one lonely blog post... goes through this print:

This is really great - thanks for sharing. Been looking to learn more about masking, too, so this was a twofer!

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2022

Take a look at Examples The Making of 40 Photographs by Ansel Adams ISBN 978-0-821217-50-4

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2022

Roy Keane said:
This is really great - thanks for sharing. Been looking to learn more about masking, too, so this was a twofer!

What's twofer?

Thanks

pentaxuser

M Carter · Feb 21, 2022

pentaxuser said:
What's twofer?

American shorthand meaning "two for one".

M Carter · Feb 21, 2022

pentaxuser said:
In the above example the toned pic also seems to have improved definition/sharpness as well as defined clouds in the sky. Oh and the little matter of the fence disappearing. How was all of this achieved?

Thanks

pentaxuser

The left image is a desktop scan of the contact sheet in its plastic sleeve. Not a "good" scanner, just a desktop printer/scanner, but it's handy for non-quality uses (when I do a complex print, I scan a test print or contact sheet and make a grid of little thumbnails for a print map, it's really more like a "storyboard" for printing steps - details are in that blog post about the print).

The actual print was 16x20, lith print with an unsharp mask, and the image of the print was shot with a DSLR and copy lighting and an Xrite Passport card to get the toning colors accurate - I use those shots for my web site and so on.

The missing fence - if you compare the contact sheet frame on the left to the final print, you'll see it's cropped significantly. That was as close as I could get with the fences and everything, I cropped out the distracting elements on the sides to print just the central part of the structure. The image has gone from horizontal to vertical. It's just a crop, nothing special.

The sky was just rainy and gray that day, the sky in the print is masked in - it was a 6x9 neg shot with an Agfa Clack camera, with the single-element lens flipped over.

M Carter · Feb 21, 2022

Roy Keane said:
This is really great - thanks for sharing. Been looking to learn more about masking, too, so this was a twofer!

Man, masking is just an amazing fistful of power. From really subtle global tone control to specific dodging/burning, and then compositing negs - it's an absolute blast.

Here in Texas, blank blue skies are the norm, all summer long; on those days I'll often use a light blue filter when shooting, so I get more density in the sky - basically you can contact print from the neg and be very close to having usable masks. This was one where I found a neg of clouds (I shoot lots of clouds and keep the negs in folders) that sort of mimic'd the foreground.

MARTIE · Feb 21, 2022

Perhaps, not exactly what you're looking for but you may get something out of this, none the less.
Steve Sherman power of process website and more specifically, 'The Story Behind Every Photograph'.
https://www.powerofprocesstips.com/

Roy Keane · Feb 21, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Take a look at Examples The Making of 40 Photographs by Ansel Adams ISBN 978-0-821217-50-4

I have it - good call. Really good resource.

wiltw · Feb 21, 2022

First is original framing as shot

this is how the 12" x 60" canvas is framed

Stand a few feet in front of the canvas, and you experience the perspective of the orignal lens and the 3-dimensionality of things in the view. You can somewhat approximate by putting your face a 6-8 inches from the monitor (depending upon what size monitor you have). You can even see life preservers mounted on the side of the boat.

Roy Keane · Feb 21, 2022

MARTIE said:
Perhaps, not exactly what you're looking for but you may get something out of this, none the less.
Steve Sherman power of process website and more specifically, 'The Story Behind Every Photograph'.
https://www.powerofprocesstips.com/

Thanks for sharing that...I love that stuff, too

Roy Keane · Feb 21, 2022

pentaxuser said:
What's twofer?

Thanks

pentaxuser

https://30rock.fandom.com/wiki/Toofer_Spurlock

Roy Keane · Feb 21, 2022

M Carter said:
Man, masking is just an amazing fistful of power. From really subtle global tone control to specific dodging/burning, and then compositing negs - it's an absolute blast.

Here in Texas, blank blue skies are the norm, all summer long; on those days I'll often use a light blue filter when shooting, so I get more density in the sky - basically you can contact print from the neg and be very close to having usable masks. This was one where I found a neg of clouds (I shoot lots of clouds and keep the negs in folders) that sort of mimic'd the foreground.

Any good sources online that can show me the ropes?

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2022

Thank you MCarter for that very comprehensive explanation on how you did it

pentaxuser

gone · Feb 21, 2022

These are wonderful, but not exactly fair comparisons on my monitor. The before prints look pretty bad. They're unsharp and faded looking, while the after prints are sorta jazzed up w/ more saturated colors, are much sharper, and have more contrast. Hopefully, no one will start w/ these before pics.

If you initially made a decent print of the first shot, then things wouldn't look so dramatically different.

jimjm · Feb 22, 2022

Continuing the "castle" theme of this thread, here's an example of a scene that had dramatic lighting in real life, but resulted in a straight print that was kinda disappointing at first. Often, I can get a straight print that I'm happy with, with little to no manipulation needed once I decide what grade to print it.
My priority here was to expose the negative for the shadows In the upper areas, as I wanted to try to retain the texture and detail in the walls, but I was concerned about the shaft of light hitting the floor and door and trying to retain some detail in that area.
After making some straight prints at grade 2 and 3, I let them languish for a few weeks, not sure what to do to get a print that I was excited about. Once I was in a better state of mind, I decided to try some split-grade burning and dodging and play around with higher grades than I usually would.
The final print ended up having a fairly complex burning/dodging scheme, and I used every filter from a #00 up to #5. Probably took almost a month to get a version I was happy with.

M Carter · Feb 24, 2022

momus said:
These are wonderful, but not exactly fair comparisons on my monitor. The before prints look pretty bad. They're unsharp and faded looking, while the after prints are sorta jazzed up w/ more saturated colors, are much sharper, and have more contrast. Hopefully, no one will start w/ these before pics.

If you initially made a decent print of the first shot, then things wouldn't look so dramatically different.

Not sure if you're referring to mine or not - as noted in other comments, these are desktop printer/scanner scans of the 120 contact sheets, which were made with print file sleeves, and I shoot my negs pretty flat. I didn't do any "decent" prints that tried to mimic the contact sheets, I just... started printing? Essentially what I showed was the contact sheet vs. the final. About as "before and after" as I can get.

M Carter · Feb 24, 2022

Roy Keane said:
Any good sources online that can show me the ropes?

I use the masking carrier that Lynn Radeka makes; he also sells a kit with instructions for making various types of masks. Once you figure out registration and how to get various densities and contrast levels on the masking film (cheap and fast ortho-litho for me), from there it's figuring out "what you want a mask to do". That could be nutty stuff like compositing several negs, or global contrast control, or burning or dodging specific stuff that would be tough to do with a card or tool. The link above has some before and after of a few common masks, but eventually you get sort of a feel for where a mask can help a print. "Way Beyond Monochrome" has a chapter on unsharp masking and also one on various contrast masks, Lynn wrote the contrast masking chapter. It's a good overview of making masks and what to look for in densities and so on.

It is something that you get sort of "second nature" with, and I've been doing a lot of fixed-grade stuff with liquid emulsions, bromoil, etc., where the masks can be really vital for getting things within the bounds of the paper.

Sirius Glass · Feb 24, 2022

M Carter said:
I use the masking carrier that Lynn Radeka makes; he also sells a kit with instructions for making various types of masks. Once you figure out registration and how to get various densities and contrast levels on the masking film (cheap and fast ortho-litho for me), from there it's figuring out "what you want a mask to do". That could be nutty stuff like compositing several negs, or global contrast control, or burning or dodging specific stuff that would be tough to do with a card or tool. The link above has some before and after of a few common masks, but eventually you get sort of a feel for where a mask can help a print. "Way Beyond Monochrome" has a chapter on unsharp masking and also one on various contrast masks, Lynn wrote the contrast masking chapter. It's a good overview of making masks and what to look for in densities and so on.

It is something that you get sort of "second nature" with, and I've been doing a lot of fixed-grade stuff with liquid emulsions, bromoil, etc., where the masks can be really vital for getting things within the bounds of the paper.

I have on order Lynn Radeka's masking carrier kit. Once it arrives and I read though what is there, I will reread the Way Beyond Monochrome chapters and then contact Lynn about his workshops since he is not that far from me. Thank for your recommendations.

M Carter · Feb 24, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I have on order Lynn Radeka's masking carrier kit. Once it arrives and I read though what is there, I will reread the Way Beyond Monochrome chapters and then contact Lynn about his workshops since he is not that far from me. Thank for your recommendations.

I use the living heck out of it. I'll say though, Lynn's marketing says "accurate enough for process work" and I haven't found that to be the case. Even before putting the carrier into the enlarger-carrier, complex masks can have alignment issues - I assume it's "great big pins" and only two of them vs. three, with one on a 2nd axis. But Alastair Ingless ain't selling his system any more! I've just learned to work with it, but it's a very nice tool for 120 and 4x5. I think for critical stuff, you almost have to go to a light table and pull the mask the right way and tape it down for critical alignment... I need a safelight-light-box I guess!

And you'll be handling your negs like nobody's business, so taking extreme care with scratches is a big deal - you can work with ortho-litho just like photo paper, like I'll cut a 2" scrap and just put it under the area I'm focusing on to dial in exposure and development, and then only punch and expose a full sheet when I have it dialed in - it's easy to scratch a neg with all that handling, I think in the future I'll try to get 2 similar negs of shots I'll be printing and use one for dialing in test pieces, and then have the "main" neg punched and ready for the actual masks. And your dust control game is big, a little dust on the neg becomes a big issue on the mask, though spotting can work in many cases - I advise a case of fine-point red sharpies! But you can bleach, spot-bleach, dodge and burn, make composite masks and so on. I'll try for "one mask that does the job of three" and stuff like that, it's a kinda fun mental challenge that does pay off.

And it's very nice to have a glass carrier that always returns to the same spot - even prints with no masking, I'll still punch the negs (well, you tape scrap film to one edge and punch it). Anyway, you're a methodical large-brained guy, I'll be interested to hear your experiences - obviously it's the kind of thing where you'll discover little workflow hacks and tips. Lynn has a Facebook group that's pretty active for masking, too.

The image below was really my torture-test, getting a sky behind that structure. The print below was baseboard masked with 16x20 ortho-litho, from a 6x7 neg. So far I've given up on really tight registration with Lynn's kit, he's also kind of scratched his head over it. But I am asking a lot of the setup I suppose. I have one more idea to try for tightening it up when I can get around to it. Not knocking it, it's kinda the only game in town right now and can give spectacular control for tonal expression, compositing gets a little tough. (some of the glow-ey artifacts are from lith printing vs. masking, too).

Sirius Glass · Feb 24, 2022

M Carter said:
I use the living heck out of it. I'll say though, Lynn's marketing says "accurate enough for process work" and I haven't found that to be the case. Even before putting the carrier into the enlarger-carrier, complex masks can have alignment issues - I assume it's "great big pins" and only two of them vs. three, with one on a 2nd axis. But Alastair Ingless ain't selling his system any more! I've just learned to work with it, but it's a very nice tool for 120 and 4x5. I think for critical stuff, you almost have to go to a light table and pull the mask the right way and tape it down for critical alignment... I need a safelight-light-box I guess!

And you'll be handling your negs like nobody's business, so taking extreme care with scratches is a big deal - you can work with ortho-litho just like photo paper, like I'll cut a 2" scrap and just put it under the area I'm focusing on to dial in exposure and development, and then only punch and expose a full sheet when I have it dialed in - it's easy to scratch a neg with all that handling, I think in the future I'll try to get 2 similar negs of shots I'll be printing and use one for dialing in test pieces, and then have the "main" neg punched and ready for the actual masks. And your dust control game is big, a little dust on the neg becomes a big issue on the mask, though spotting can work in many cases - I advise a case of fine-point red sharpies! But you can bleach, spot-bleach, dodge and burn, make composite masks and so on. I'll try for "one mask that does the job of three" and stuff like that, it's a kinda fun mental challenge that does pay off.

And it's very nice to have a glass carrier that always returns to the same spot - even prints with no masking, I'll still punch the negs (well, you tape scrap film to one edge and punch it). Anyway, you're a methodical large-brained guy, I'll be interested to hear your experiences - obviously it's the kind of thing where you'll discover little workflow hacks and tips. Lynn has a Facebook group that's pretty active for masking, too.

The image below was really my torture-test, getting a sky behind that structure. The print below was baseboard masked with 16x20 ortho-litho, from a 6x7 neg. So far I've given up on really tight registration with Lynn's kit, he's also kind of scratched his head over it. But I am asking a lot of the setup I suppose. I have one more idea to try for tightening it up when I can get around to it. Not knocking it, it's kinda the only game in town right now and can give spectacular control for tonal expression, compositing gets a little tough. (some of the glow-ey artifacts are from lith printing vs. masking, too).

I would have rather had a three pin 120 system, but he does not have that available. More awkward for storing, but I will work it out.

M Carter · Feb 25, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I would have rather had a three pin 120 system, but he does not have that available. More awkward for storing, but I will work it out.

I've found I shoot way more 4x5 now that I'm masking a lot; with all the computer printing and milling these days, I do muse about making a 3-pin system (well, having some geeky kid make it), I'd probably need to buy some graphic arts punches and see how they're put together. I worked in a service co. doing stats and prepress/stripping in my 20's, but that was another life!

Looking for more before&after print examples

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