Looking for a small wide angle in 4x5

film_man · Jan 9, 2022

Hey folks, I have a Nikkor SW 90/5.6 Copal 0 for my 4x5. I have hardly used it since buying it as it is a bit too wide for my liking, so was thinking of getting rid of it and swapping it with something a bit shorter (eg 105mm) and a lot smaller. I was looking at the Nikkor 105/5.6 which is tiny but then I had a look at the coverage table from Michael Davis and if I'm reading it right it just about covers 4x5?!?! Barely 1% extra coverage so practically no movements.

Is that right or am I reading it wrong? Anyone have experience with this lens? Also any other lenses that would be nice to look at in the 100-115mm range that are less than £300 and are not huge? The Fujinon 105/5.6 looks like a better bet but that still has little excess coverage. Though I'm not sure how to relate to the coverage nubmers. For the few shots I've done with the 90, they were environmental portraits with no movements and a couple of landscapes with a bit of front tilt.

Thanks!

Dan Fromm · Jan 9, 2022

If you want smallish lenses around 100-105 mm that cover more than 150 mm, think about the 105/5.6 Fujinon CM-W, claimed coverage 174 mm, and 100/6.3 Wide Field Ektar, coverage ~ 168 mm.

Craig · Jan 9, 2022

Your 90mm is a wide angle design, which the 105 nikkor isn't. They arein a different series of lenses, the 90 is the SW (super wide, with a 105 degree field of view) and the 105 is W ( wide- 73 degree angle of view)

About the only lens that covers 4x5 nicely in the 105 focal length is the Fujinon 105 CM as Dan mentioned. The Fuji CM series is the latest design, and has greater coverage than the earlier W series. There is also a 105 SW, which is a wide angle design that has plenty of coverage for 4x5, at the expense of being bigger. If it's not too much of a jump, there is a 125 in the W and CM series that has lots of coverage. I expect that would be cheaper than a 105 SW.

grat · Jan 9, 2022

I have a Fujinon 105mm f/5.6 NW, and while it's a nice lens, it *barely* covers 4x5 (162mm), with zero movements available.

According to subclub, the SW/NSW will cover 250mm, and the CM-W will cover 174mm. However, they are 67, 77, and 67mm diameter front elements, respectively.

Ian Grant · Jan 9, 2022

I'm surprised that you find a 90mm too wide, my 90mm lenses get used for maybe 25-30% if my images, we don't have a lot of wide open spaces here in the UK. I have a 210mm Symmar S and it was some time (a few years) before I used it now I use it or other 203/210mm lenses much more, I suggest you give the 90mm a bit more deliberate use.

A bit of background I shoot landscapes, sometimes I need to use a 65mm, however I tend to use a 75mm in preference (since getting one), they are wide. I have a 120mm f6.8 Angulon and did stick it in my 5x4 backpack on a visit to Cornwall 3 years ago but the reality was I didn't need a lens between 150mm and 90mm, I bought the 120mm for my 7x5 cameras.

Ian

Sirius Glass · Jan 9, 2022

Just move in closer with the 90mm lens and then you do not have to get into the buy-sell cycle.

film_man · Jan 9, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Just move in closer with the 90mm lens and then you do not have to get into the buy-sell cycle.

Does that make the lens lighter? I think my overall issue is with the lens itself, it is a lens I don't use much because of the focal length but when I do use it I don't like operating it, it is fiddly to attach due to the size, it is fiddly to attach the release as it is too close to the lens board, it is heavy to handle when mounting/unmounting, it takes up a lot of space in the bag. So I really don't mind the buy/sell. Who knows, I may decide to keep the money from the sale and put it towards that 555ELD I'm also eyeing. Oops there...want to get a Hassy again, I'm sure you approve

Sirius Glass · Jan 9, 2022

film_man said:
Does that make the lens lighter? I think my overall issue is with the lens itself, it is a lens I don't use much because of the focal length but when I do use it I don't like operating it, it is fiddly to attach due to the size, it is fiddly to attach the release as it is too close to the lens board, it is heavy to handle when mounting/unmounting, it takes up a lot of space in the bag. So I really don't mind the buy/sell. Who knows, I may decide to keep the money from the sale and put it towards that 555ELD I'm also eyeing. Oops there...want to get a Hassy again, I'm sure you approve

I see your point of view. I recommend that your sell the 90mm lens which you do not care for, buy a longer lens and buy the 555ELD and you will enjoy life much more.

film_man · Jan 9, 2022

Thank you all for the suggestions I think the Fujinon CWM may do and the price doesn't look that bad. I'll have a look at the Fujinon 125 too, though that is probably getting a bit too close to my 180.

Light Capture · Jan 9, 2022

While there might be some small alternatives to larger 90mm lens, Schneider Angulon 90mm f6.8 is probably the best alternative.
There are few other lenses of the same size in that focal length and all are relatively easy to find at reasonable price.

Most 100-105mm lenses probably won't have the some coverage. Some are probably wide angle designs but all of them aren't as common as small 90's.
90mm diminutive wide angles have reasonable coverage and can be always cropped to 100-105mm FOV with minimal loss.
Weight for these small 90's is negligible.

film_man · Jan 9, 2022

Ian Grant said:
I'm surprised that you find a 90mm too wide, my 90mm lenses get used for maybe 25-30% if my images, we don't have a lot of wide open spaces here in the UK. I have a 210mm Symmar S and it was some time (a few years) before I used it now I use it or other 203/210mm lenses much more, I suggest you give the 90mm a bit more deliberate use.

A bit of background I shoot landscapes, sometimes I need to use a 65mm, however I tend to use a 75mm in preference (since getting one), they are wide. I have a 120mm f6.8 Angulon and did stick it in my 5x4 backpack on a visit to Cornwall 3 years ago but the reality was I didn't need a lens between 150mm and 90mm, I bought the 120mm for my 7x5 cameras.

Ian

I see you point but I don't really do that much with landscapes. For me 4x5 is more for setup people shots or close-up details.

AnselMortensen · Jan 9, 2022

+1 on what Light Capture said.

105mm lenses are typically designed for 6x9cm.
If you want a wide angle 90mm that's small & light...and don't need much in the way of movements, maybe a Wollensak 90mm f6.8 Raptar would work for you?

Jesper · Jan 10, 2022

I've been using Angulon 90/6.8 and 120/6.8 with adequate results. They are cheap and fairly easy to find as well as quite small

Ian Grant · Jan 10, 2022

As your main lens is a 180mmm rather than the more typical 150mm standard. a 120mm is significantly wider, it also accounts for why you find a 90mm too wide it's a huge jump, I suspect you would find a 100.105mm.still a touch wide.

In terms of size and weight the 120mm f6.8 Angulon is small and light with plenty of coverage, probably the 125mm Fujinon CM-W it the next best option. Factor in the taxes etc which are based on the cost and the shipping of buying from abroad that usually adds around 33%.

Ian

Steve Goldstein · Jan 10, 2022

If you're really set on the 100-105 focal length you might also consider an old 4-3/8" (108mm) Wollensak Series IIIa f/12.5 Extreme Wide Angles. It supposedly covered 5x7 (I never tried), even more way stopped down.

Bear in mind that f/12.5 is fairly dim for focusing.

Ian Grant · Jan 10, 2022

Steve Goldstein said:
If you're really set on the 100-105 focal length you might also consider an old 4-3/8" (108mm) Wollensak Series IIIa f/12.5 Extreme Wide Angles. It supposedly covered 5x7 (I never tried), even more way stopped down.

Bear in mind that f/12.5 is fairly dim for focusing.

f12.5 is the first marked aperture, they actually open to f9 for focussing. Later some were sold as f9 alongside the f12.5 version. Kodak used to sell the Dallmeyer 4¼" (110mm) which was listed as f7-11, f7 for focussing, f11 for shooting. It covers Half plate/7x5 and was sold in the Kodak Specialist 2 kit or as an accessory, it's a tiny lens unfortunately it's not in a shutter.

Ian

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 10, 2022

The Fujinon 125 is a sweet lens. Small, too.

abruzzi · Jan 10, 2022

What about the 100mm and 110mm Dagor lenses? I take it they are a wide angle design with similar coverage to the Angulon? I have longer Dagors (165 and 305) that I like, but I've never tried shorter versions.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 10, 2022

A couple of options (opinions):

If it is just the large size of the 90mm f/5.6 that bothers you, look at the 90mm f/8 versions of the SW lenses (Nikkor or Fujinon SW or the Schneider Super Angulon, all f/8, or the Rodenstock Grandagon f/6.8). They are all significantly smaller than their larger cousins, have a bit less coverage, though (the 90mm f/8 SW Nikkor has the most), and all (I think) take 67mm filters. I wouldn't carry one of the larger 90mm lenses in my kit; just to big and bulky, but I have both the 90mm f/8 Schneider SA and the 90mm f/8 Nikkor SW and find them very portable.

If you need smaller than that, the suggestions for the 90mm Schneider Angulon (non-Super) and the 100mm WF Ektar are good. The Ektar has a tad more coverage due to its longer focal length; the 90mm Angulon just barely covers 4x5. I don't know the Dagors, but if they are designs like the Angulons or WF Ektars, then they will do the job too.

If you really want longer than the 90mm focal length, then I'd step up to a 125-135mm; 100mm isn't significantly different than 90mm. Your choice would depend on how much coverage you need. The older Fujinon 125mm lenses (W-series) have the most published coverage at 210mm. The newest CM-W is next with 204mm (but it's significantly bulkier than the other Fuji 125mm lenses with a 67mm filter size). The NW 125mm has a 198mm image circle, usable on 4x5 with limited movements.

Most 135mm Plasmats have about a 200mm image circle with the older Fuji Ws and the WF Ektars having more coverage at 228mm.

If it were me, I'd go for one of the f/8 90mm 105° lenses and pick myself up a cheap 135mm Plasmat from one of the big four manufacturers to add to my 180mm lens.

Best,

Doremus

Ian Grant · Jan 10, 2022

abruzzi said:
What about the 100mm and 110mm Dagor lenses? I take it they are a wide angle design with similar coverage to the Angulon? I have longer Dagors (165 and 305) that I like, but I've never tried shorter versions.

I have a pre-WWI 120mm f6,8 Dagor in a Compound #0 shutter, stopped down it will cover 7x5, it's incredibly small compared to a 120mm f6.8 Angulon while it's the same maximum f stop its appreciably dimmer to focus but has excellent contrast. The Dagor isn't a wide angle design it just gets significantly sharper at the edges and corners as it's stopped down.. There's also a Wide Angle Dagor though. a different design, the Angulon's are reverse Dagor designs.

Ian

abruzzi · Jan 10, 2022

I'm also a sucker for anything in a Compound shutter. My ~165mm Dagor is I'm guessing pre WWI as well (labeled C.P. Goerz Berlin Dopp. Anastigmat Dagor) and the compound its in is more reliable than any of the old clockwork shutters I have. My 12" Dagor is also in a Compound that is pretty accurate. I'd love to pick up one of the small Dagors to try out--more as a normal on 6x9--but I have more than enough ~100mm lenses.

David Lindquist · Jan 10, 2022

abruzzi said:
What about the 100mm and 110mm Dagor lenses? I take it they are a wide angle design with similar coverage to the Angulon? I have longer Dagors (165 and 305) that I like, but I've never tried shorter versions.

The 10 cm f/9 Dagor made by Carl Zeiss Jena (pre-WWII) and the 4 3/8 inch (111 mm) f/8 Wide Angle Dagor from C.P. Goerz American Optical Co./ Goerz Optical Co. are nice small wide angle lenses. Calculating from catalogue information the F/9 Zeiss Dagor would cover 90º plus at "small stops". My circa mid-late 1960's Goerz Optical Co. literature claims 90º for the Wide Angle Dagor, typically at f/45. Main problem with these lenses is if you look at eBay the asking prices are rather high for what you are getting in terms of a user lens.

David

Bob S · Jan 10, 2022

Or, the 90mm 6.8 Geragon-WA is quite small.

Luis-F-S · Jan 10, 2022

Ian Grant said:
I have a pre-WWI 120mm f6,8 Dagor in a Compound #0 shutter, stopped down it will cover 7x5, it's incredibly small compared to a 120mm f6.8 Angulon while it's the same maximum f stop its appreciably dimmer to focus but has excellent contrast. The Dagor isn't a wide angle design it just gets significantly sharper at the edges and corners as it's stopped down.. There's also a Wide Angle Dagor though. a different design, the Angulon's are reverse Dagor designs.

Ian

Or a WA Dagor, either a 3 5/8 or a 4 3/8. I've got both and Great Lenses.

film_man · Jan 10, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
A couple of options (opinions):

If it is just the large size of the 90mm f/5.6 that bothers you, look at the 90mm f/8 versions of the SW lenses (Nikkor or Fujinon SW or the Schneider Super Angulon, all f/8, or the Rodenstock Grandagon f/6.8). They are all significantly smaller than their larger cousins, have a bit less coverage, though (the 90mm f/8 SW Nikkor has the most), and all (I think) take 67mm filters. I wouldn't carry one of the larger 90mm lenses in my kit; just to big and bulky, but I have both the 90mm f/8 Schneider SA and the 90mm f/8 Nikkor SW and find them very portable.

If you need smaller than that, the suggestions for the 90mm Schneider Angulon (non-Super) and the 100mm WF Ektar are good. The Ektar has a tad more coverage due to its longer focal length; the 90mm Angulon just barely covers 4x5. I don't know the Dagors, but if they are designs like the Angulons or WF Ektars, then they will do the job too.

If you really want longer than the 90mm focal length, then I'd step up to a 125-135mm; 100mm isn't significantly different than 90mm. Your choice would depend on how much coverage you need. The older Fujinon 125mm lenses (W-series) have the most published coverage at 210mm. The newest CM-W is next with 204mm (but it's significantly bulkier than the other Fuji 125mm lenses with a 67mm filter size). The NW 125mm has a 198mm image circle, usable on 4x5 with limited movements.

Most 135mm Plasmats have about a 200mm image circle with the older Fuji Ws and the WF Ektars having more coverage at 228mm.

If it were me, I'd go for one of the f/8 90mm 105° lenses and pick myself up a cheap 135mm Plasmat from one of the big four manufacturers to add to my 180mm lens.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks for all that. I'm increasingly looking at the 125 Fujinons.

Looking for a small wide angle in 4x5

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