Looking for a small refillable cyclinder for inert gas

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for a small refillable cylinder for inert gas. I contacted my very helpful sc. equipment and chemical supplier (He saved me some money by suggesting I should use Insulin syringe, instead of buying expensive pipets). He said that I can get Argon, Nitorgen type inert gas from any local gas supplier very cheaply. But the problem is the price and size of the cylinder. What I'm looking for is a 1-1.50 feet tall refillable cylinder that I can use for inert gas.

Can you please give me some ideas - specification of the bottles, where I can such an empty cylinder either in EU or USA online, etc? BTW, I've bought a Tetenal Protectan Gas can, which is on it's way. But I'm looking for a long term cheaper option.

Bests,

Ashfaque

BBQ Propane bottle. A bit big, but available and relatively cheap.

mrred said:

BBQ Propane bottle. A bit big, but available and relatively cheap.

Click to expand...

That isn't suitable for gases such as nitrogen or argon which don't liquify at normal temperatures. It needs to strong like an acetylene or oxy bottle. I think that in some markets, like Australia where I live, in general the bottles aren't owned but leased on a changeover basis. Maybe some organizations like scientific institutions own their own. I know a guy who possesses an oxy bottle outside the system and he considers himself lucky to have acquired it.

You never mentioned it needed to be liquid state. I guess you will be on the hook for a proper bottle. I don't see a way around it. There may even be laws on what kind of container they can fill. Your best bet is to ask them.

@mrred: Thanks for the suggestion. But they look a bit larger.

As to what I'm looking, perhaps I should be more specific. Think about the size of a gas can like Tetenal Protectan, mosquito aerosol can, or something similar.

Not sure if such things are available - but it would be even better if it can take those tiny nozzles that are used to oil bicycle chains.

@John: afaik, similar thing here in Dhaka if you are buying gas cylinders for cooking. But they are huge, quite expensive (at least $350) and impractical.

If the refillable cylinder is too expensive, I'll just buy Tetenal or those wine thingy when needed. Murbles and smaller bottles are another option but neither is too convenient.

Speaking of Tetenal Protectan, how long does one (400 ml) last?

Bests,

Ashfaque

Is this for chemical storage ? Protectan is just a mix of propane and butane AFAIK, I used mine to exhaustion, took a while, and then just started using neat butane gas that I bought originally to refill my soldering iron.

Ashfaque said:

As to what I'm looking, perhaps I should be more specific. Think about the size of a gas can like Tetenal Protectan, mosquito aerosol can, or something similar.

Click to expand...

Bottles of that size either

-) must contain a liquíd gas to give enough gas volume with a cheap can
(As Protectan meanwhile contains just common LPgases, you easily could buy a similar can used for smal torches and such, but then you must buy the appropriate burner too get a valve. But likely that would be more economical in the end. You could think of those compact LPG thanks for camping, but then you would have to modify the cooker to obtain a valve.)

-) must be appropriate high pressure tanks (200bar or such). The best way too obtain them would be a major industrial gases dealer who does refillings and tank servicing too. You would not only need a valve but a pressure reducer too. Keep in mind that they must be standardized, got the right inscription, the right threading at the valve. They only would be refilled in a certain time span, then they would have to be inspected at the inside again. There are small tanks of 1L available. Speak with that gas dealer for all these important and complicated details. But in the end that might not be a economical way. And it makes no sense buying something on the net you won't get refilled locally for legal or practical matters.


There may also be small 2L(?) refillable Propane tanks available at your place.


But instead of deciding between LPG (which yields a certain fire risk!) or high pressure inert gases (which need quite large initial investment), you might consider the air-tight-bag solution for storing of liquids.

Dive Shop? as in an scuba tank?

Here are a few suggestion as I understand the size you seek,
Look at "paint ball" gas cylinders. This may be the size you seek.
Next suggestion is CO2 cylinders for the beverage industry. As in home brew wine and beer.

GoSystem Butane/Propane (70:30) Gas Cartridge

Daire Quinlan said:

Is this for chemical storage ? Protectan is just a mix of propane and butane AFAIK, I used mine to exhaustion, took a while, and then just started using neat butane gas that I bought originally to refill my soldering iron.

Click to expand...

Daire: Yes, for chemical preservation. I didn't konw Protectan is propane + butane. Can I use something like GoSystem Butane/Propane (70:30) Gas Cartridge, or, the Ronsons from here? If I can use those simple kitchen butane gas lighter, can I use a kitchen blowtorch to put the gas in the small chemical bottles?

AgX: Thanks for the explanation. I'm no longer interested in those cylinders as they too complicated or expensive. It seems, getting something less complicated would definitely be a better solution for larger volume of liquids. Re. air-tight-bag solution - are you referring to those 4-5 liters water bladder ones? I saw few on Amazon. I certainly can use those for powder chemicals (D76, Miicrophen, etc) that need to be mixed as a whole. But the small developer bottles (, for e.g. SPUR ones,) are a problem.

Bests,

Ashfaque

probably, I assume so. I use those Ronson ones. I don't think the mix makes any difference, the propane is added just to raise the pressure of the cartridge and lower the boiling point I think, though I could be wrong. I have a nozzle from one of the cans of protectan I used up, has a standard aerosol top with a long thing plastic tube so I can hold the can upright and still direct the gas into the chemical containers.

Ashfaque said:

Daire: Yes, for chemical preservation. I didn't konw Protectan is propane + butane. Can I use something like GoSystem Butane/Propane (70:30) Gas Cartridge, or, the Ronsons from here? If I can use those simple kitchen butane gas lighter, can I use a kitchen blowtorch to put the gas in the small chemical bottles?

Click to expand...

In this case, just use the cheap butane lighter refill cans, like $3 for 200g, about the size of a deodorant can. I keep my C41 developer concentrates under this stuff and it lasts very well - I've tried it up to 18mo with no degradation at all.

Don't use a kitchen torch because that will provide just a tiny trickle of gas. Blast the gas in directly from the refill can nozzle.

Since you're trying to minimise total number of oxygen molecules in the bottle, what I do is:
- blast a whole bunch of butane into the bottle to displace as much air as possible
- spray a bit more onto the wall of the bottle; it will form a little icy patch of condensed gases+water
- seal the lid; pressure will climb a fair bit as it warms so vent it if the bottle starts to have issues
- once the temp has equalised, slowly vent most of the gas, but do not let it down to atmospheric pressure, i.e. don't suck air back in
- squeeze the bottle to maintain pressure as you vent the gas
- seal the cap

That will leave you with very little remaining oxygen, and hopefully with a nice thick blanket of butane between the developer surface and any remaining oxygen. The butane seems to be heavy enough that when I come back to use the developer after a couple of weeks, you can see (due to increased index of refraction) the butane pour out of the bottle ahead of and with the developer. If you leave a bottle uncapped, much of the butane just seems to sit there instead of escaping but I wouldn't recommend that as a storage option

@polygot: Thanks a lot for the tutorial. I'll try. In the mean time, any chance of you doing a video on this!?

Bests,

Ashfaque

If you are concerned about storing Developer chemicals, it really doesn't have to be that complex or elaborate.

Personally, all I do is to have many small (8oz = 250cc) plastic bottles and medium size (16oz = 500cc) bottles and store them per use size. I bought them cheaply at Amazon. These bottles has plastic code "2" on bottom. Stored this way, they last at least 6 months. The longest I kept was 8 months.

It's really convenient to heat/cool and use.

I know we argue/discuss endlessly about merit of glass/plastic/brown/clear but personally, what I use is all I need. Clear, and plastic (of right kind) bottles.

Automotive speed shop... N2O tank?

local thrift has a breathable 9white top) oxygen bottle on a cart. Personal size. 4 - 5 inch by 3 foot.


pm me and i'll run by to verify it is still there and in hydrostatic test date.

Thanks a lot everyone, for your wonderful assistance. I found a butane can in the house. I'll try it with SPUR Acurol-N tomorrow. If things don't pan out, I'll pester you again!

Bests,

Ashfaque

I think protectan is a propane or butane mixed with Argon. The argon is heavy and forms an inert layer that sits on top of the liquid and the propane acts as a propellent and is expands quickly to drive out the air, and is probably cheaper.

Don't use CO2, as I understand it the oxygen in the CO2 can still oxidise chemicals.

Both propane and argon gases are completely oxygen free so should work independently. I've used plain old butane cigarette lighter gas to protect colour chemistry. I don't have anything to compare it against as I've always used it but it seems to have been effective for me.

I guess the benefit of the addition of Argon to the mix is that it would stop the propane/butane dissolving in to the solution and changing its properties. I don't know if this is an actual or theoretical problem but I guess the argon would solve the problem.

http://www.tetenal.de/SIDA/SIDAUK/105193.pdf

AFAIK it's just a mix of butane and propane (plus, apparently, some isobutane according to the document above). Insoluble in water so that's not a problem.

RE my post: I wasn't recommending N2O as the gas. I was only recommending the possibility of using a tank sold for N2O use to hold nitrogen or another inert gas in liquid state. You'll need to ensure the cylinder, valve, regulator, fittings and other pieces are properly rated for the pressure and chemical interactivity your gas of choice will impose on them.

Simonh82 said:

....Don't use CO2, as I understand it the oxygen in the CO2 can still oxidise chemicals......

Click to expand...

CO2 is quite soluble and will alter the pH of the liquid.

Argon would be ideal as it doesn't dissolve much and is very inert (argon= greek for lazy, referring to its lack of chemical activity.)

You can get argon to keep opened bottles of wine fresh, but it wouldn't be very economical. Here in Australia they are $20 for a can, but I don't know the capacity.

I use one for a beverage carbonator, but how's this one?
http://www.bedbugsupply.com/product.asp?itemid=147&gclid=CPfakKDMlMMCFRAtaQodbTkAww

It's for Co2 which is used for paint ball, beverage carbonation and fire extinguishers.

Many of you come up with all kinds of bottles, as if there are no bottles in India.
And as said above the bottle must be accepted for filling by the local industrial gas supplier, whereever in the world that is.

Mainecoonmaniac said:

I use one for a beverage carbonator, but how's this one?
http://www.bedbugsupply.com/product.asp?itemid=147&gclid=CPfakKDMlMMCFRAtaQodbTkAww

It's for Co2 which is used for paint ball, beverage carbonation and fire extinguishers.

Click to expand...

CO2 will alter the PH which is not desirable for developers.

I've used a propane torch with a hose and the 1 pound cylinders. Will allow you to get the gas into the bottle easily. I've also used Dust-Off, but I don't like the velocity it comes out at. The propane is low volume, and heavier than air. It also seems to be non reactive with photo chemicals, as well as cheap.