Looking for a slow film

reub2000 · Oct 7, 2006

Today I was printing some Ilford Delta 100 on 8x10 paper at school, and thought it looked a bit grainy. I want something slower. What's a good film that will produce a smooth and grainless look? ASA doesn't really matter as I will be using this on a tripod for static subjects.

doitashimashite · Oct 7, 2006

Ever tried Fuji Neopan Acros?

André E.C. · Oct 7, 2006

Pan F+?

Cheers

André

Keith Tapscott. · Oct 7, 2006

reub2000 said:
Today I was printing some Ilford Delta 100 on 8x10 paper at school, and thought it looked a bit grainy. I want something slower. What's a good film that will produce a smooth and grainless look? ASA doesn't really matter as I will be using this on a tripod for static subjects.

Delta 100 is a very finegrain film and is capable of almost grain free prints from even 35mm. The grain could be down to other factors. eg, over exposure and/or over development, incorrect temperature of the processing chemicals etc. How are you exposing and processing the film?

reub2000 · Oct 7, 2006

Keith Tapscott. said:
Delta 100 is a very finegrain film and is capable of almost grain free prints from even 35mm. The grain could be down to other factors. eg, over exposure and/or over development, incorrect temperature of the processing chemicals etc. How are you exposing and processing the film?

I exposed the roll at stock speed, and then processed it in D-76. 9 minutes @ 68F. I'm just following the instructions of my photography teacher.

P C Headland · Oct 7, 2006

Acros or Efke 25 would be good starters.

Better still would be a larger format film

reub2000 · Oct 7, 2006

P C Headland said:
Acros or Efke 25 would be good starters.

Does the Acros have better grain than Delta? How does the grain of the Efke compare to the ASA100 films?

Woolliscroft · Oct 7, 2006

Did you put cold wash water straight onto room temperature film? It might be micro-reticulation. Delta 100 shouldn't be very grainy at 8 x 10, but all film needs to be cooled fairly slowly at the wash stage. I am told that this is less on an issue with modern films than it used to be, but it is still a good habit to get into.

David.

reub2000 · Oct 7, 2006

Woolliscroft said:
Did you put cold wash water straight onto room temperature film? It might be micro-reticulation. Delta 100 shouldn't be very grainy at 8 x 10, but all film needs to be cooled fairly slowly at the wash stage. I am told that this is less on an issue with modern films than it used to be, but it is still a good habit to get into.

David.

The water should have been running at 68F. It probably has more to do with the fact that I used the #3 contrast filter. It's not super grainy, just a bit grainy.

noseoil · Oct 7, 2006

Efke 25

Haven't used acros or delta film yet to compare grain, but efke 25 is a decent fine grained film for 35mm. The suggestion of a larger format might also be a way to go here, as well. Medium format or a 4x5 press camera would certainly give better results for 8x10 prints, but efke 25 is a wonderful film in 35mm to try. J&C sells it and is a sponsor of the forum. It is a bit picky about exposure and development, so you would have to do some tests to see how you like it. Experiment with a few types to see what you think. There is plenty of good film out there, so try different things until you find a good combination for your work.

Here's a test shot done with efke 25 and developed in pyrocat-hd developer, just enlarged to 5x7 in this image. I was playing with highlight and shadow values in full sun. Grainless prints are possible, but it takes a bit of doing to get your system of exposure, development, paper and printing just right. tim

m_liddell · Oct 7, 2006

If you used a 3 filter you dev time must be OK. I got pretty grainy resuts with delta 100 with ilfosol (v bad combo). Which dev are you using? Grain with 35mm is a fact of life A cheap tlr or other MF camera would be an easy way to solve the problem.

I use acros and the grain is very very fine, I'd give that a go.

Rolleijoe · Oct 7, 2006

reub2000 said:
Today I was printing some Ilford Delta 100 on 8x10 paper at school, and thought it looked a bit grainy. I want something slower. What's a good film that will produce a smooth and grainless look? ASA doesn't really matter as I will be using this on a tripod for static subjects.

You've got to have some grain, or it just wouldn't be film. Acros as mentioned earlier is a very fine grained film. I prefer it in Rodinal, but that's just me.

Also, the Efke25 is a phenominal film, and as close to grainless as I've ever seen (also in Rodinal). Even using my Peak focuser #1, it's difficult to find actual grain to focus on!

The Delta films IMO have always been lacking. Not sure what you're shooting, or how you're processing, but if you find 100asa film printed full-frame to 8x10grainy, I'd hate for you to print 16x20x or 20x24s as I do from Tri-X.

But I use the sharpest lenses there are (Zeiss) for 35mm and 120. They capture all of the detail perfectly.

MikeSeb · Oct 7, 2006

"weapons system"

As someone else here alluded, you should consider everything you do from tripping the shutter to processing the final print as components of a "weapons system" that must coordinate and interlock with each other to produce the desired result.

I've had very good results developing Delta (and TMax for that matter) films using Xtol or its homebrewed cousin Mytol. These are my standard developers. There is grain, but it's acceptable and unobtrusive. I use Xtol at a variety of dilutions, knowing that the finest grain is obtained at full strength, avoiding overdevelopment. I get box speed by this method. Diluting Xtol can perhaps improve the tonality and acutance of the film--never sure if I really see this--but at the price of more prominent grain, still unobtrusive with Delta 100 or Tmax 100.

Efke films are splendid also. I especially like Efke 50 for its rich tones and smooth fine creamy grain, also developed in Xtol at up to 1+2.

rtuttle · Oct 7, 2006

Rolleijoe is right Efke 25 is very fine grained and I also used Rodinal at a 50:1 ratio for about 8 minutes. I did however find that .10 is actually 50iso. But that's under my conditions not yours. Keep in mind that from what I hear Efke 25 has a different red sensitivity that normal film so some of your colors might not be what you originally had in mind. But you might like it, that's why I am trying it.

If you are looking to make better enlargements somebody prior made mention of a TLR. I purchased a Yashikamat 124g about 10 years ago second hand for a little over $200 in mint shape and it makes fantastic negatives and even better positives. They maybe even cheaper now I haven't looked but it's a great option you just can't change lenses. But I have had some great moments with it when I didn't feel like dragging my 4x5 out!!

Travis Nunn · Oct 7, 2006

Echoing the recommendations of others, Fuji ACROS is my favorite film. I get very fine grain in Sprint Developer.

kb244 · Oct 7, 2006

Fuji Arcos, Ilford PanF are two sugestions I would give

also depends on how you develop it.

But if you want slow... you can always try litho films that have ASA down to 2 or 3 lol. I've shot Kodak UltraTec at ISO 3, or Kodalith at 12.

I've also shot Panatomic-X at 20 .

Or... you could just shoot the film at 50 or lower, problem is Delta doesnt like being pushed or pulled, where as stuff like FP4+ or HP5+ can handle it.

Woolliscroft · Oct 7, 2006

reub2000 said:
The water should have been running at 68F. It probably has more to do with the fact that I used the #3 contrast filter. It's not super grainy, just a bit grainy.

Well all B&W film is a bit grainy. You could always try using a larger film format.

David.

fschifano · Oct 7, 2006

This has been mentioned earlier in the thread, though perhaps it bears repeating. Assuming that you are doing everything correctly (exposure, development time, temperature control, et.al.) to insure a good image, there will always be some grain in a traditional B&W film. How much of it will show is also dependent upon how much you enlarge the negative. A moderately cropped 8x10 print from a full frame 35mm negative may very well be something on the order of a 10x enlargement. That's a considerable magnification ratio for any film. Viewed at close range, you will see some grain especially in sections of the print with large areas of continuous tone without texture like skies. That is unavoidable since the image structure is composed of tiny silver "grains."

You can reduce apparent grain by usian a larger negative. Less magnification = less apparent grain. That might not be an option for you, but your choice of film can be. The least grainy prints I've been able to make at 10x or so have come from Kodak's TMax 100 (TMX) in XTOL 1+1. The grain is so fine that it is a challenge to see any through a grain focusing magnifier on the baseboard. PanF+ comes in a close second, and has a very different tonal range. Developed in D-76, the grain differences are minor with these two films. I can't comment on the grain qualities of the slower Efke films, but these along with PanF+ with ISO ratings of 50 or lower, might be too slow for use with a handheld camera with a fast lens on any but a bright day. After all, what good is a grainless image that suffers from motion blur induced by camera shake?

Alan Johnson · Oct 7, 2006

jandcphoto.com now sell 35mm Adox KB25 film,but I believe this originates from the same source as Efke 25,which is the least grainy traditional film.
For occasional keenness,try the high resolution film Adox CMS 20 and a bottle of Adotech developer.This is a virtually grainless microfilm like the now discontinued Kodak Tech Pan ,but I found it inclined to curl up.
If you wish to use the finest grained 100 iso film,Kodak T-max 100 is finer grained than Acros and Delta 100 IMO. Delta 100 has the reputation for looking sharpest, not the same as finest grain.

doitashimashite · Oct 7, 2006

Alan Johnson said:
up.
If you wish to use the finest grained 100 iso film,Kodak T-max 100 is finer grained than Acros and Delta 100 IMO.

Are you sure?

Gerald Koch · Oct 7, 2006

The Massive Development Chart gives 8.5 min @ 20 C for this film. This would be for an average scene intended to be printed on grade 2 paper. It is usually recommended to reduce the development time and use a grade 3 paper with 35 mm film for the express purpose of reducing grain. Since you were already using the proper grade of paper you also need to reduce the development time a bit. At 9 min you are already above what is recommended even for grade 2 paper.

Alan Johnson · Oct 7, 2006

Well,that was my conclusion from shooting a lot of 35mm B/W landscapes on T-max 100, Acros and Delta 100 and enlarging 11x.

It would be wrong to claim T-max 100 is finest grained in all developers I suppose.

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 7, 2006

doitashimashite said:
Are you sure?

That has been my experience (compared to Delta 100, Fuji Acros and Efke 25, tmax-100 had the smallest grain size, in addition, the tmax 100 had very high acutance). The developer was Pyrocat-MC diluted 1+1+100 used with minimal agitation at 22 deg. C. There was probably some grain masking by the Pyrocat.

Not that it makes any difference, but to expose the 35mm films, I used a 50/1.8 MC Zeiss Jena Pancolar. With the 120 rollfilm I used a 150mm MC Docter Optics Apo Germinar W.

All films were exposed at the box rated EI's. Stouffer step wedge exposures were also included.

reub2000 · Oct 7, 2006

I can't comment on the grain qualities of the slower Efke films, but these along with PanF+ with ISO ratings of 50 or lower, might be too slow for use with a handheld camera with a fast lens on any but a bright day. After all, what good is a grainless image that suffers from motion blur induced by camera shake?

A faster film like Tri-X is better for handholding. But I plan to use the slower films on a tripod with a self-timer and mirror lockup.

I think I'm going to get some of the Efke 25 and try it out. For the chemistry, I'll just use the D-76 that the teacher puts in the film developing room.

Edit: I have a Yashica 124G in bad condition that I got off of fleabay for $95. I need to really clean this thing before I use it. For now I'm sticking with 35mm, using mainly my EOS ELAN 7.

P C Headland · Oct 7, 2006

reub2000 said:
Does the Acros have better grain than Delta? How does the grain of the Efke compare to the ASA100 films?

Better? I don't know I would say better, but it seems "smoother", which at least gives the appearance of being less grainy.

I find Efke 25 to be virtually grainless (at least in 6x6), and has a totally different look - like luscious rich dark chocolate. Don't use an acid stop bath, just plain water. I usually pre-soak this film for a couple of minutes too.

I develop them all in Rodinal, the Delta in 1+50 and the others in 1+100.

Post some results, and your thoughts on the chosen film. Good luck.

Looking for a slow film

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