Looking at LF, some questions...

handle2001 · Sep 17, 2015

For a while now I've wanted to move beyond 35mm to a bigger format, and I was convinced medium format was the next step. Now, however, I'm rethinking that mainly because I've been reading quite a bit about fine art photography (my desired genre) and it seems most serious photographers are using large format cameras. On top of that I realized that many large format cameras can shoot 120 film with the appropriate holders, so it's really like I'm getting both formats for the price of one. Being able to fully utilize the zone system with sheet film is probably my primary goal. I've been looking at 4x5" Speed Graphics on eBay, because I like the portability factor and most of my shooting is done simply walking around looking for interesting people or situations to photograph (plus they look cool, so sue me). My question is, are these a suitable entry camera for LF and what would be considered the bare minimum kit to get started assuming I already have access to a full wet darkroom? With lenses being an order of magnitude more expensive for these cameras, my plan was to look for a camera with a normal lens. 90% of my photography is portraiture or landscapes, with the emphasis on portraits. Are there any similar cameras to the Speed Graphic I should be looking at as well?

Old-N-Feeble · Sep 17, 2015

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php

Alan9940 · Sep 17, 2015

The 4x5 Speed and Crown Graphics certainly are a good place to begin; I would advise you to do some research of the differences between the two and carefully consider their fit with your desired subjects. I believe the Speed has a focal-plane style shutter located in front of the film plane vs the Crown which uses lens-based shutters. Having never owned a Speed myself, please take what I say with the proverbial "grain of salt" and look into it. One or the other might be better for your needs.

The main issue with all the Graphics IMO is lack of movements. For causal street shooting, portraits, human study, etc, the limited movements probably wouldn't be an issue. However, landscapes could be problematic depending on what you're shooting. For me, I shoot landscapes and general outdoor scenes with both 4x5 and 8x10 and I wouldn't consider any camera without tilts/swings/rise/fall/shift on the front standard and all but rise/fall on the rear standard. YMMV of course. Lens choice is, again, highly variable depending on your needs. I don't really understand your statement of "...an order of magnitude more expensive" because it all depends on what you buy. I've spent orders of magnitude more on Hassy and Leica glass than I ever did on any LF lens.

Good luck! And, as already mentioned the LF Forum would be a tremendous source of info and knowledge for you.

Best regards,
AlanH

Alan Gales · Sep 17, 2015

If you want a walk around 4x5 to shoot hand held then a Crown Graphic is hard to beat. The Crown is lighter than the Speed because it lacks the focal plane shutter of the Speed Graphic. Some people prefer the Speed Graphic for the focal plane shutter so they can shoot old lenses in barrel (without shutter) and have a shutter.

If you want to shoot landscape photography then you are better off with a field camera for the movements.

If you want to shoot portraiture then you need to make sure that you have enough bellows draw for the longest lens you want to use.

You can pick up a nice Crown or Speed Graphic with lens for $300 or less. I've seen nice used Shen Hao field cameras without a lens go for around &700 to $750.

Lenses are all over the place in price. Expect to pay $300 to $400 for a nice 90mm wide angle in modern Copal shutter. I've seen nice 210mm lenses in Copals go for $150 to $200 lately.

Join Large Format Photography Forum today. After 30 days you can view the for sale section.

Bill Burk · Sep 17, 2015

What a fun question to ponder.

Imagine yourself 40 years in the future and looking back on that day when some guy on the innertubes told you to pick up a box of 20x24paper, find the biggest cardboard box you can... Make the box light-tight, poke a hole in a piece of foil...

When I think of art with a big camera I think of Sally Mann and the 8x10 that she setup in the middle of the creek in her backyard. 4x5 feels puny next to that.

But you can make pictures with anything. So if you need to experiment, try the best of a few formats like a Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, a good field or studio 4x5. Sure a cardboard box too. Then stick with the one that works for you.

shutterfinger · Sep 17, 2015

Graflex Crown and Speed Graphic cameras were designed as Press Cameras. Others are correct about the Crown, it is the same camera as the Speed minus the focal plane shutter and as such is shorter allowing it to use wider angle lens than the Speed and it is lighter. http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/graphic-models.html Before 1947 there were only Speed Graphics usually in 4x5 format but 3x4 were not too uncommon. Very early Speeds were available in postcard format. In 1939 the Miniature Speed Graphic was introduced, the first 2x3 Speed Graphic. Pacemakers, Crown and Speed, were made in 2x3, 3x4, and 4x5 formats. There were no Crown Graphics before the Pacemaker series introduced in 1947. All Speed and Crown Graphics are capable of producing gallery quality images, some cameras are not rigid enough to produce gallery quality images. Super Graphics have more front standard movements but no back movements. Toyo is another brand of field cameras to consider but a bit more pricey than the Graphics.

Jim Jones · Sep 17, 2015

The various cameras by the Graflex company (Crown Graphics, Speed Graphics, and many more) seem like a logical choice. The Ektar or Optar lenses that were original on most of these are decent lenses. Stopped down to typical apertures, they usually produce photos nearly as good as the expensive lenses often used on view cameras. My favorite to supplement these lenses is the Kodak Ektar 203mm f/7.7. It is compact enough to fit in the closed Graflex case. Shutters this old may need some work. Other similar cameras, all lacking the focal plane shutter of some Graflexes, are the Busch press and Burke & James. Most of these have revolving backs which the Graflex products don't. Somewhat less common are the MPP cameras from England and the Meridian. Linhof made similar cameras which are highly regarded and priced accordingly. Most of the Graflex cameras have leather covered wood bodies which are a bit lighter than most of the other cameras mentioned here. The Graflex cameras are part of an extensive system. Finding accessories for the others mentioned above may be more difficult.
For more information on Graflex cameras, visit http://graflex.org/. Graphic Graflex Photography by Morgan and Lester or Morgan and Morgan has much information on these cameras. The 4th edition covers up through the Anniversary model. You should have at least the 8th edition to cover the early Crown and the 11th edition to cover the top rangefinder Crown and a few other later products.

Sirius Glass · Sep 17, 2015

The 4"x5" Speed and Crown Graphics are a good place to begin. You can always sell them for what you paid for them. Any lenses that you buy for them will work in any other 4"x5". Plus you can use them both on a tripod and hand held. I started with a 4"x5" Pacemaker Speed Graphic and a 4"x5" Graflex Model D five years ago and I still use them.

I too suggest that you look at http://graflex.org/

Doc W · Sep 17, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
Here's your camera right here. This is what you want.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRAFLEX-SUP...SAK-SHUTTER-/331656543411?hash=item4d38453cb3

This is exactly the camera you want for your two main interests: street photography and landscapes.

Make sure you read www.graflex.org so that you understand the differences between the Super and the earlier Speed and Crown Graphics. The Super Graphic is as portable as the others but much more versatile. It has an all-metal body and full front movements as well as a rotating back. I started out in LF photography with a Crown Graphic - a great camera - but got a Super fairly soon after. I still have it although I know use a Wisner 4x5 field technical field camera. The only thing lacking on the Super Graphic is back movements but until you get a proper field camera, the Super Graphic is an excellent choice. If you want to do both street and landscape photography, it may well be the only choice.

Do not confuse this with the Super Speed Graphic which is the same camera but with a different lens with faster shutter speeds. Also, keep in mind that if you want to use any of these Graphics for street photography, you need to get the proper cam for the lens you will be using. While Super Graphics are easy to find, the cams are not.

Sirius Glass · Sep 17, 2015

I have not used back movements very often. Only when I feel like playing around and doing some experimenting.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 18, 2015

Years ago, I moved from 35mm through MF to LF (4x5). Although portability has always been important for me, two things led me to LF.

First was the fact that I ended up working on a tripod most of the time anyway, and often cursing at my MF cameras for not having movements. The second was the quality of larger film and the ability to individually develop each negative. A 4x5 wooden field camera ended up being the perfect solution for me.

I started out with a Graphic View monorail camera and hauled it and several lenses around in the wilderness for a couple of years (in the bulky, grey case no less). It was heavy and a real pain to lug around, but gave me the negatives I loved (and the movements I needed). When I finally purchased a Wista DX, I put it away and now only haul it out occasionally for table-top work in my Vienna apartment, where it ended up in 1988. I now have three wooden cameras and a Sinar monorail added to my arsenal, but still do 95% of my work with the small Wista DX or a Woodman.

I've looked at the metal-bodied field and press cameras and, personally, find them too heavy for the type of field work I do. However, if you want to shoot hand-held, there's nothing better than a good rangefinder press camera. Coupled with a roll-film back, they are almost as fast as many MF cameras (just heavier and bulkier...)

Press cameras, on the other hand, usually have fewer and more fiddly movements. Unlike others who have posted to this thread, I regularly end up using a lot of movements (including back movements), even with more straightforward landscape shots. I would not buy a camera without front and back movements plus shift on at least one of the standards.

Choosing lenses presents similar choices: lightweight with smaller maximum apertures and less coverage (my choice for portability) or bigger, brighter and abundant coverage?

So, there are some things for you to consider. You have to fit the camera and lenses you eventually get to your needs. Of course, most of us go through a couple of cameras/lenses before finding a type that suits us well. If you buy used, you can usually re-sell with little or no loss.

Best,

Doremus

Alan9940 · Sep 18, 2015

It's interesting to me those who say they never or rarely use back movements. When I lived in Vermont, I spent quite a lot of time photographing the brooks and waterways throughout the state. With the camera usually pointed down at my subject, I often used a bit of back tilt to cause the foreground elements (typically rocks) to "loom" which gave them a feeling of more presence in the image. Always interesting to me how other photographers work!

Best regards,
AlanH

Hatchetman · Sep 18, 2015

IMO, medium format is much better for spontaneous things you see along the way. 4x5 you have to have a tripod, and I would say setting up your shot could take 2-4 minutes depending how fast you are.

RobC · Sep 18, 2015

One thing to consider is that with LF 300mm lens may around optimal for head portraits. 210mm lens may be OK but until you start using LF you just don't know becasue the format is different from what you're used to and what you like currently. I don't know what the available extension is on the camera you are thinking of but check before buying.

Don't worry about movements. Normally you only need a tiny bit of front tilt for landscapes, if any, and none for portraits.

But bypassing medium format may not be your best option. How big do you want to print? If 20x16 is as big as you want to go you should be able to get very high quality from medium format for that. Everything about LF makes it 10 times more difficult to get it right. Perfecting technique in MF is usually plenty good enough.

Your failure rate per image with LF will be much higher unless you are obsessive about technique and being obsessive requires taking time. I used to do 10 to 15 mile walks regularly. Then I got a LF camera. My walks became 2 or 3 miles becasue by the time I had unpacked my kit, set it up, checked it, composed my image, checked it, finanlly decided to trip the shutter, de-assembled it and repacked my very heavy rucksack, I didn't have time to complete the walk I was planning on. MF makes a lot more sense.
Then you need a 4x5 enlarger and lens, 4x5 development tank (you can use trays) and all the rest of the gubbins that you suddenly need for 4x5.
So think very carefully before embarking on LF.

Ari · Sep 18, 2015

Going against the grain a little, I'd recommend you look at the Fuji GX680 cameras.
Shoots 6x8 on 120 film, excellent lenses, full movements on the front standard, inexpensive, and quite sophisticated in use and features.
A body, normal lens (100-125) and back can cost as little as $300.00 if you're patient and opt for the first version of the GX680 body.
It would be a good introduction to camera movements and an inexpensive venture as well.

Sirius Glass · Sep 18, 2015

Alan9940 said:
It's interesting to me those who say they never or rarely use back movements. When I lived in Vermont, I spent quite a lot of time photographing the brooks and waterways throughout the state. With the camera usually pointed down at my subject, I often used a bit of back tilt to cause the foreground elements (typically rocks) to "loom" which gave them a feeling of more presence in the image. Always interesting to me how other photographers work!

Best regards,
AlanH

I guess that I do not aim the camera way up nor way down often, well at least at buildings.

shutterfinger · Sep 18, 2015

Super Graphic, Crown graphic, and Speed Graphic are all Press Cameras. Press cameras were shot hand held. They were designed for fast hand held shooting.

Sirius Glass · Sep 18, 2015

shutterfinger said:
Super Graphic, Crown graphic, and Speed Graphic are all Press Cameras. Press cameras were shot hand held. They were designed for fast hand held shooting.

And they can also be used on a tripod as a view camera with limited movements. This too I have done.

Sirius Glass · Sep 18, 2015

But the last time that I checked a Hass was not and never was a Super Graphic, Crown graphic, or Speed Graphic.

removed account4 · Sep 18, 2015

handle2001 said:
For a while now I've wanted to move beyond 35mm to a bigger format, and I was convinced medium format was the next step. Now, however, I'm rethinking that mainly because I've been reading quite a bit about fine art photography (my desired genre) and it seems most serious photographers are using large format cameras. On top of that I realized that many large format cameras can shoot 120 film with the appropriate holders, so it's really like I'm getting both formats for the price of one. Being able to fully utilize the zone system with sheet film is probably my primary goal. I've been looking at 4x5" Speed Graphics on eBay, because I like the portability factor and most of my shooting is done simply walking around looking for interesting people or situations to photograph (plus they look cool, so sue me). My question is, are these a suitable entry camera for LF and what would be considered the bare minimum kit to get started assuming I already have access to a full wet darkroom? With lenses being an order of magnitude more expensive for these cameras, my plan was to look for a camera with a normal lens. 90% of my photography is portraiture or landscapes, with the emphasis on portraits. Are there any similar cameras to the Speed Graphic I should be looking at as well?

hi handle2001

i bought a speed graphic as my entry camera into LF back in the 1980s and still use it all the time.
its a great, fast camera to set up ( you just open the front and pull the front standard out ), working rangefinders
so you don't need to use the ground glass to focus, easy to do no tripod handheld work ...
works well on a tripod, takes lenses from 65mm ( /3 for 35mm equiv ) and out to a 15" tele so
there are lots of things you can have fun with ... focal plane shutter makes it easy to use
with a variety of lesser expensive barrel lenses, enlarger lenses, brass lenses, stuff harvested off
of folders, or stuff you might want to make yourself ( its not hard to stick a few planoconvex and other cells in a tube
and make your own lens ) ... ... depending on the year and make they also take roll film backs if you
decide you want to use 120 film on occasion ...
if you plan on using the camera where movements are needed ( perspective control for photographing architecture distortion/shallow
selective focus &c ) you might think about getting a different camera that allows for front and rear standard adjustments ...
to be honest i photograph architecture for archives ( federal and state ) make portraits and photograph the local terrain
and while i have and use a camera with movements for some of the tricky-stuff, i can use a speed graphic for 90% of what i do...

good luck finding something that works for you !
john

pdeeh · Sep 18, 2015

handle2001 said:
Being able to fully utilize the zone system with sheet film is probably my primary goal.

that's an interesting primary goal.

my primary goal is to make as beautiful pictures as i can.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 19, 2015

Addressing the issue of "Zone System as a primary goal."

If the OP is just wanting to master technique for technique's sake, then maybe a rethink is in order.

However, despite the technicalities of the Zone System, it's primary advantage is as a tool for visualization. Playing the scale of tones like a musical scale - visualizing how a scene will print before you even click the shutter and being able to accept, modify or simply dismiss the attempt to get what you want as futile is the main goal of the Zone System. Many people just meter a shadow value, check a highlight area and then determine development. That's not really using the Zone System. I examine a scene, decide how I want the mid-tones to relate to each other, where I want the highlights and shadows, etc. and then I start metering to see if that's even possible. Often there's a compromise to be made (e.g., developing to contrasty and then using print manipulations to get the highlights under control in order to keep important mid-tones in the desired place). I know pretty well before I click the shutter how the negative and print will turn out. I indicate development scheme and likely paper grade (as well as notes about dodging, burning, bleaching and flashing) into my negative exposure record. I know of no other tool but the Zone System that enables one to do that; not even BTZS.

So, if that is what the OP is striving for, it says to me he wants to take time visualizing and metering... Maybe that doesn't go so well with fast-paced street photography, but portraiture can be a more relaxed and controlled environment.

I'll reiterate to the OP: If you find you want movements and you want the visualization control the Zone System offers, then LF is the easiest way to get it. If you don't particularly value those things, then maybe there's no need for LF; medium format handles a lot more like 35mm (just bigger and heavier) and you can work off the tripod much, much easier than with a heavier Speed or Crown Graphic.

Best,

Doremus

analoguey · Sep 19, 2015

I wonder if the OP's seen the responses here.

handle2001 said:
For a while now I've wanted to move beyond 35mm to a bigger format, and I was convinced medium format was the next step. Now, however, I'm rethinking that mainly because I've been reading quite a bit about fine art photography (my desired genre) and it seems most serious photographers are using large format cameras. On top of that I realized that many large format cameras can shoot 120 film with the appropriate holders, so it's really like I'm getting both formats for the price of one. Being able to fully utilize the zone system with sheet film is probably my primary goal. I've been looking at 4x5" Speed Graphics on eBay, because I like the portability factor and most of my shooting is done simply walking around looking for interesting people or situations to photograph (plus they look cool, so sue me). My question is, are these a suitable entry camera for LF and what would be considered the bare minimum kit to get started assuming I already have access to a full wet darkroom? With lenses being an order of magnitude more expensive for these cameras, my plan was to look for a camera with a normal lens. 90% of my photography is portraiture or landscapes, with the emphasis on portraits. Are there any similar cameras to the Speed Graphic I should be looking at as well?

The three responses prev to mine tell you how to use the Zone system.

I don't see how the OPs going to shoot handheld LF cameras for street style shooting as described above with regular 4x5 holders.Or carry enough of them and still be quick enough between holder swaps, darkslide swaps and composing -even if on the rangefinder! And with the rangefinder, one's giving up on using that gorgeous 4x5 ground-glass that lets us view the scene. (IMHO if I have to see through tiny viewfinder to shoot, I'll pick 35mm over every other format)

I shoot all formats, and my most used Still is 35mm - for all shots where the time for ' composition' and framing is limited.
Medium format system or large Format only works for 'street' shots, if you're going to slow your street shots a lot - look at it in a completely different way to existing examples. Any 'Decisive moments' will have to be chalked up in advance, be in position minutes earlier, get everything ready before etc.,

Sent from Tap-a-talk

removed account4 · Sep 19, 2015

hi analoguey:

whlle looking through the ground glass is fun,
if necessary setting the fstop to f8 or 5.6 or ?
and marking the focus scale for 10 or 6 of 15 or infinity focus
and zone focusing with the view finder or sports finder works great for street-stuff
i used to have a lumedyne flash on the side of my camera set the aperture to f11 @125thS or 60hS and roam around looking through the
finder and doing street stuff .. worked great !
THEN ... i started using a graflex slr, also 4x5, and made for street work, made for portraits, and landscapes
with the only drawback that it doesn't have a flash sync .. the series D i got back in .. 96? had a flash sync on the side
that the seller removed before he sold it to me, so i know it is possible to retrofit an old style x-sync if strobes or other
flash are needed ... the graflex has ground glass, there is no lag time between viewing and exposure seeing the film is already
ready and in the back of the camera ... perfectly weighted and a dream to use ...

personally, i don't like MF i dont' really see the point (unless its a box camera ) ... so for me, its either small or large format, and if i absolutely need to use 120 film
i will stick it in a roll back and put it on the back of a LF camera, so i have the benefits of large bellows for close up / long lens work,
or esoteric etheral looks from vintage or junque, or home made glass ... ( unless its a box camera cause they are .. kind of fun and random to use )
while i see some people like to take their time with LF and slow down, it really isn't too slow for me either, i shoot LF sometimes like a 35mm camera ..

Doc W · Sep 19, 2015

pdeeh said:
that's an interesting primary goal.

my primary goal is to make as beautiful pictures as i can.

... and knowing basic materials and techniques (such as having good contrast control of your negatives) will certainly help you on your way. Before I explored 4x5, I thought my photos were as beautiful as I could make them. But with roll film, I didn't have access to certain techniques, so one of the main reasons I went to 4x5 was to utilize such approaches as the zone system more easily and fully. I think the OP is dead on.

Looking at LF, some questions...

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