Long Rinse Times in Small SS Tanks

bvy · Apr 19, 2016

For those of you developing film in small stainless steel tanks that require longer than usual rinse times -- i.e. something more than the causal Ilford method -- how do you do it? For my Paterson tanks, I have the hose that attaches to the funnel and that works well. But as I'm starting to use stainless steel tanks, I wonder how others approach it. Thanks.

Truzi · Apr 19, 2016

I have a film washer that fits the stainless reels. I just move the reels to it after I'm done fixing.
It looks like this:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/images/product/11435.jpg

jvo · Apr 19, 2016

i have an old zone vi film washer, fits 2 120 ss reels and works great!

MattKing · Apr 19, 2016

When I use stainless steel reels, I just let the water tap dribble water into the centre of the reel, and let the water gently overflow the sides of the tank.

Here is what Kodak says, if you use Hypo Clearing Agent:

Wash (for) 5 minutes
Run the wash water at least fast enough to provide a complete change of water in the container in 5 minutes. For rapid washing in a small tank, fill the tank to overflowing with fresh water and then dump it all out. Repeat this cycle 10 times.

bvy · Apr 19, 2016

These are all good tips. Thank you. My concern with the tap (with or without the hose) is keeping the water temperature within one degree for the duration of the rinse time. With the Ilford method, I can draw the water in advance.

bdial · Apr 19, 2016

I have a length of 3/8 in tubing attached to my faucet and I put it into the center of the reel and wash for 20 minutes with the faucet barely cracked open. As APUGuser19 notes, small, gradual changes in temperature aren't a problem for most films, certainly not for Kodak and Ilford's products.
A fill and dump method works ok too if you want tighter control on temp and don't have a temperature controlling faucet. My fill and dump method before I got the temperature controlling faucet was to dump and fill every 5 minutes for 20 minutes total.

BetterSense · Apr 19, 2016

I don't leave the water running from the tap anymore because of temperature changes...I scrapped a roll of Fuji that way when the tap temperature changed due to someone else in my apartment using the water (Kodak film in the same batch was fine BTW). I would only trust running water if I had a Intellifaucet.

I do "slack washing": I change the water a few times but let it soak a few minutes each change while I do something else. For me it's not about time-to-press, it's about minimizing my involvement required.

MattKing · Apr 20, 2016

If you are worried about temperature changes, use a bucket and a small siphon hose. Fill the bucket, start the siphon and go.

The necessary flow rate is very low.

Xmas · Apr 20, 2016

It is simple doing three changes per ilfords method.
Temper enough water for three and away you go.

bvy · Apr 20, 2016

BetterSense said:
I do "slack washing": I change the water a few times but let it soak a few minutes each change while I do something else. For me it's not about time-to-press, it's about minimizing my involvement required.

Agree. Do you agitate during these fill and dump cycles?

Xmas said:
It is simple doing three changes per ilfords method.
Temper enough water for three and away you go.

That's why I specified "long" rinse times in the thread title and called out the Ilford method in my first post. I'm looking at using a hardening fixer and need a more thorough rinse than Iflord's.

Rick A · Apr 20, 2016

If you are using a hardening fixer, then you should also be using a wash aid to shorten wash times. I keep a bottle of Adorama Archival Wash Aid around for washing fiber prints, but it can also be used to wash film. Instructions call for one minute wash, one minute in wash aid, followed with one minute final wash.

bvy · Apr 20, 2016

silveror0 said:
Why are you interested in a hardening fixer? Ilford says in their data sheets under the heading "Fix Hardener" for both FP4+ and HP5+ (and probably others as well) that modern films are sufficiently hardened at manufacture and only recommend adding a hardener under certain conditions. These conditions do not generally apply to home development.

Because I'm developing Acros, and I'm having issues with the emulsion softening and flaking in places, as is well documented in a few recent threads here. In spite of Ilford's blanket statement on modern emulsions, the Acros data sheet recommends hardening fixers only. So I'm going to try it their way.

Rick A · Apr 20, 2016

I've used quite a bit of Acros 100 over the years, still have a ton of it stowed in the deep freeze, never had any issues with emulsion frilling or flaking off. I develop in D-76 and sometimes in Rodinal. I use standard dilution stop and a neutral pH fixer. Have you tried any pyro developers? They have a tanning effect on the emulsion, and hardens it somewhat, no hardening fixer required, neutral preferred. I use PMK Pyro exclusively with Foma films(and EDU) as they are notoriously soft emulsions and never have any problems(except for the sheet of 4x5 dropped on the floor, and scratched when i stepped on it in the dark trying to find it).

Gerald C Koch · Apr 20, 2016

You can use a 3% solution of potassium chrome alum as a hardening stopbath. Chrome alum is much better at hardening the emulsion. Don't worry about the chromium it is a different valence state from that of dichromate and does not have the toxicity.

BetterSense · Apr 20, 2016

bvy said:
Do you agitate during these fill and dump cycles?

Yes, I agitate indifferently and inconsistently. Sort of once all the pink dye is washed out, or it's been 30 minutes, or until one of my kids need me, whichever comes first, is when I stop rinsing.

Xmas · Apr 21, 2016

I'm sorry you are having emulsion breaking up.
I never had any problem with Fuji.
I hold all the temperatures including the photo flow at 20C within 1/2 C.
Yes I had read their data sheets.
The Ilford method is not casual you need to understand the physical chemistry involved, to understand why it is archival.
You need three changes with 5, 10 and 20 inversions. The inversions are critical!
If you use a hardner you need five or six changes with sequence of 5, 10, 20, 40, 80,... Inversions Prefixed by HCA.
I never use acid stop or acid fixer.
Foma and Efke film are/were worse than Fuji.
You save water with Ilfords method.

bvy · Apr 21, 2016

Thanks everyone. Yes, I considered a prehardening bath for the reasons described here -- it would potentially protect the film from the beginning. I didn't want to add the complexity, though, if better tempered baths and a hardening fixer would solve my problem. I'll reconsider it though. I found a source for chrome alum, but I have no experience preparing chemicals from scratch like this.

I also considered Pyro, but I didn't want to start from scratch with a new developer (my repertory is already pretty broad!). I was also a bit put off by the statements about how the tanning/staining affects printing with filters. Right now I'm using XTOL and I like the results I get.

My current rinse method is a variation of Ilford's: Instead of 5+10+20, I'm using 1+1+5+5+10+10+15+15+20+20. Maybe that's excessive, but I wouldn't expect it to cause problems. Even so, I don't think it's thorough enough to rinse after a hardening fixer.

bvy · Apr 21, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
You can use a 3% solution of potassium chrome alum as a hardening stopbath. Chrome alum is much better at hardening the emulsion. Don't worry about the chromium it is a different valence state from that of dichromate and does not have the toxicity.

Thanks. Is this the stuff I need?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281289929623

Xmas · Apr 22, 2016

bvy said:
Thanks everyone. Yes, I considered a prehardening bath for the reasons described here -- it would potentially protect the film from the beginning. I didn't want to add the complexity, though, if better tempered baths and a hardening fixer would solve my problem. I'll reconsider it though. I found a source for chrome alum, but I have no experience preparing chemicals from scratch like this.

I also considered Pyro, but I didn't want to start from scratch with a new developer (my repertory is already pretty broad!). I was also a bit put off by the statements about how the tanning/staining affects printing with filters. Right now I'm using XTOL and I like the results I get.

My current rinse method is a variation of Ilford's: Instead of 5+10+20, I'm using 1+1+5+5+10+10+15+15+20+20. Maybe that's excessive, but I wouldn't expect it to cause problems. Even so, I don't think it's thorough enough to rinse after a hardening fixer.

You are thinking...

If you are damaging emulsion it is most likely the acid stop, a pH swing and temperature change together is bad.

Hardening after stop may not help, you may need to prehardened.

Simpler not using acid stop and tempering.

Adox said for their Efke film

'We recommend the use of plain water to stop !'

I fair copy

Dump developer
Part fill tank with tempered water
Invert 20 times
Dump water

Pour in tempered fix: note I don't use acid fix either.

This is overkill but low risk at 68F should be ok much higher is more risk.

If you want archival 5,10, and 20 tempered water is ok, if you use hardner you need

Fix,
Rinse,
HCA
5,10,20,&40

It is best if you invert wait for water to flow then upright tank wait for water to flow.

It is the flow that refreshes the water film over the emulsion. Which would otherwise be static. You don't need to waste more water.

The HCA counters the hardening process.

Good luck.

Long Rinse Times in Small SS Tanks

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