Long lens suggestions copal 0 (4x5)

SWB · Aug 3, 2017

Hello all!

Relatively new to LF work and am looking for suggestions for lens suggestions in the 210+ range. Here are the restrictions I'm working with:

Shooting a Technika III so lensboards are at a premium; I have a couple spare copal 0 boards and would like to use one without drilling it out for a copal 1 shutter.
Certainly on a budget by lf standards, so buying my way out of this one isn't going to work.
I do a fair amount of lower light work so being able to shoot wide open is VERY helpful
Not adverse to flares
Concerned that the copal 0 might cause vignetting, would like to avoid that if possible (is this why so many 300mm+ lenses are on copal 1s?)

Thanks all!

Stephen

Ian Grant · Aug 3, 2017

A British made 203mm f7.7 Ektar, late ones were in a Compur #0 shutter, earlier were in first a Kodak Epsilon #0 shutter, then a Prontor SVS again #0 so any will fit a Copal/Compur #0 sized lens board. Howver the Epsilon and Prontor have no preview button (unlike the Compur) so need setting to B ot T to focus. Very sharp lenses usually less than £100/$131 - I paid £7 for mine in the Prontor. They cover 7x5 with movements so there's no vignetting with 5x4.

Note the US made ones use a Supermatic shutter, although the last were in a Graphic Compur #1

Anything else is in a Compur/Copal #1 including the 210mm f6.1 Xenar

Ian

E. von Hoegh · Aug 3, 2017

Not too many choices, maybe a 9 1/2" Artar.

jimjm · Aug 3, 2017

I'd also recommend the 203/7.7 Ektar as meeting most of your needs, as well as being reasonably-priced and fairly easy to find on the used market. I've got a US-made version in Supermatic shutter, and it's sharp. I believe I paid a bit over $100 a few years ago.

A few others to consider might be the Fujinon A 180/9.0 or the Nikkor M 200/8.0, both fitting a size 0 shutter. These might be tougher to find and most likely more $$ than the Ektar. LFF forum also has a lot more info and links: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ .

SWB · Aug 3, 2017

Thanks a million for the quick replies. It's so hard to get my bearings on the details on this stuff...I've shot MF and 35 since the 80s but never ventured up to LF until last month. Got a 127 with my linhof and really want to move away from that to a shorter and longer lens.

Old-N-Feeble · Aug 3, 2017

I wouldn't choose a lens based on what lens boards I have on hand. Linhof-style lens boards are easily found for US$10 or so. Buy the lens best suited to your needs, then buy the lens board to need to fit the shutter.

Steve Goldstein · Aug 3, 2017

If you have enough bellows for it, the longest lens commonly available in a Copal 0 was the 240mm f/9 Fujinon-A. Much much much less common is the 260mm f/10 Apo-Congo.

To Old-N-Feeble's point, it's a relatively simple matter to make a #1 lens board out of a #0. Your universe of availability will grow considerably if you can entertain something in a Copal 1.

SWB · Aug 3, 2017

Old-N-Feeble said:
I wouldn't choose a lens based on what lens boards I have on hand. Linhof-style lens boards are easily found for US$10 or so. Buy the lens best suited to your needs, then buy the lens board to need to fit the shutter.

I'm not sure I've seen any Technika III boards that cheap. If you've got a link to any, I'd love to see it.

Dan Fromm · Aug 3, 2017

OP, here's a list of links to catalogs etc.:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AggQfcczvHGNkGG_P2z8Qiyc8Qo-

Old-N-Feeble · Aug 3, 2017

SWB said:
I'm not sure I've seen any Technika III boards that cheap. If you've got a link to any, I'd love to see it.

Generally speaking, genuine Linhof boards cost more than US$10 unless they're very cosmetically challenged. However, there are many vendors who sell generic Linhof boards for US$10 or so. Look on eBay.

EDIT: I just checked eBay and the cheapest one listed is US$15.

E. von Hoegh · Aug 3, 2017

Old-N-Feeble said:
Generally speaking, genuine Linhof boards cost more than US$10 unless they're very cosmetically challenged. However, there are many vendors who sell generic Linhof boards for US$10 or so. Look on eBay.

EDIT: I just checked eBay and the cheapest one listed is US$15.

Technika III boards are different.

SWB · Aug 3, 2017

Old-N-Feeble said:
Generally speaking, genuine Linhof boards cost more than US$10 unless they're very cosmetically challenged. However, there are many vendors who sell generic Linhof boards for US$10 or so. Look on eBay.

EDIT: I just checked eBay and the cheapest one listed is US$15.[/QU

E. von Hoegh said:
Technika III boards are different.

Thanks for mentioning that, that was why I mentioned it in the original post---but you knew that

E. von Hoegh · Aug 3, 2017

SWB said:
Hello all!

Relatively new to LF work and am looking for suggestions for lens suggestions in the 210+ range. Here are the restrictions I'm working with:

Shooting a Technika III so lensboards are at a premium; I have a couple spare copal 0 boards and would like to use one without drilling it out for a copal 1 shutter.

Certainly on a budget by lf standards, so buying my way out of this one isn't going to work.

I do a fair amount of lower light work so being able to shoot wide open is VERY helpful

Not adverse to flares

Concerned that the copal 0 might cause vignetting, would like to avoid that if possible (is this why so many 300mm+ lenses are on copal 1s?)

Thanks all!

Stephen

Most 300mm lenses are in Copal 3 shutters, not 1s, because a 300mm f:5.6 lens simply will not fit a #1 shutter; most 150~mm lenses are in Copal 1 shutters.
You really need at least one board with a larger hole, limiting yourself to lenses in Copal 0 shutters is fine for wide angle (90mm or so) lenses, but not really realistic for longer lenses if you want a reasonable max. aperture for use in low light.
The 203/7.7 Ektar is a really great lens, but max. aperture is essentially f:8, so focussing in low light becomes more difficult. Unfortunately, the laws of physics dictate this limitation.

SWB · Aug 3, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
Most 300mm lenses are in Copal 3 shutters, not 1s, because a 300mm f:5.6 lens simply will not fit a #1 shutter; most 150~mm lenses are in Copal 1 shutters.
You really need at least one board with a larger hole, limiting yourself to lenses in Copal 0 shutters is fine for wide angle (90mm or so) lenses, but not really realistic for longer lenses if you want a reasonable max. aperture for use in low light.
The 203/7.7 Ektar is a really great lens, but max. aperture is essentially f:8, so focussing in low light becomes more difficult. Unfortunately, the laws of physics dictate this limitation.

VERY helpful. Ultimately i may just have to have one of the current boards i have get bored out.

Patrick Robert James · Aug 3, 2017

The possibilities of the world await you if you have a board drilled for a Copal 1. Shouldn't cost that much. If you don't want to send it to someone, find a local machine shop. They might do it for nothing since it will only take them a couple of minutes. You could also drill it yourself with a round file or a Dremel.

You say you shoot in low light, which is another reason to get a board drilled. You can get any number of 210mm f/5.6 lenses, all cheap and all good. There is a 210 Schneider Symmar on the bay right now for $100 shipped. Cheap. That took me less than a minute to find. For a 300mm you are getting into difficult territory as far as a "budget" goes. I'd start with the 210 if I were you.

Good luck.

locutus · Aug 3, 2017

Considered a (true) Tele lens? The Fujinon 300 f/8 comes in a Copal 0 and you wont have any problems with bellows extension.

In outdoor daylight focusing a f/8 tele is a breeze, i dont see the fuss.

E. von Hoegh · Aug 4, 2017

locutus said:
Considered a (true) Tele lens? The Fujinon 300 f/8 comes in a Copal 0 and you wont have any problems with bellows extension.

In outdoor daylight focusing a f/8 tele is a breeze, i dont see the fuss.

Fujinon 300/8.5 comes in a Copal 1, the OP likes low-light situations, as he stated in his first post, so it may not be "a breeze".

SWB · Aug 4, 2017

Patrick Robert James said:
The possibilities of the world await you if you have a board drilled for a Copal 1. Shouldn't cost that much. If you don't want to send it to someone, find a local machine shop. They might do it for nothing since it will only take them a couple of minutes. You could also drill it yourself with a round file or a Dremel.

You say you shoot in low light, which is another reason to get a board drilled. You can get any number of 210mm f/5.6 lenses, all cheap and all good. There is a 210 Schneider Symmar on the bay right now for $100 shipped. Cheap. That took me less than a minute to find. For a 300mm you are getting into difficult territory as far as a "budget" goes. I'd start with the 210 if I were you.

Good luck.

really good advice...thanks

Ai Print · Aug 4, 2017

In my opinion, "Long" in 4x5 starts at about 300mm and beyond.

Although not an insignificant change in how the resulting photo will look, 200mm or so is merely a nod and a wink beyond the so called normal perspective of a 150mm "Standard" lens for 4x5. So for the 200mm-ish range, I approach it two ways. I have in Copal-0 a Nikon M 200mm F8 and a Fujinon A 240mm F9. But for low light I use a Sironar S 180mm 5.6 in Copal-1, a pretty spectacular optic and on my Maxwell screen comes within a stop of the actual scene if you took a photo of the back of the camera among it.

So I would say you have to bite the bullet and get a Copal-1 board and go for a nice modern 210mm 5.6. It will feel big compared to a Copal-0 lens like a 135 or 150 5.6 but it's worth it.

Here is the Nikkor M 200mm F8 and the Sironar S 180mm 5.6 on the camera for comparison:

jim10219 · Aug 4, 2017

You know, you could probably sell your current lens boards and buy one with the proper sized hole on that auction site. You'd likely only be out the cost of shipping and a seller's fee if you bought used. Or just have the hole enlarged, obviously. I wouldn't try to buy a lens just to fit a lens board. It'll likely cost you more money and leave you with a worse lens.

I do have a 210mm lens that fits into a Copal 0 lens board. It's an old Rapid Rectilinear in a surprisingly accurate Wollensak compound shutter. You can even remove one of the elements to make it something close to a 400mm lens. It's not coated, but stopped down, it looks like a pretty modern lens. It was pretty cheap too.

Ian Grant · Aug 4, 2017

A comment about Linhof style lens boards. They are only aluminium sheet and it's easy to make your own, I have a Linhof board (pre the modern Linhof/Wista type) but for a recessed #00 shutter, came in a bunch of boards but I think it's for the smallest Linhof, it;s third party but I remember selling a similar genuine Linhof one on this Forum maybe 10 years ago.

I've used my 65mm f8 Super Angulon #00 Compur on a simple home-made aluminium board for over 25 years on my Wista with no issues, also a board made (cut down) from a Sinar board with my 210mm Symmar S, and another home made boards with my 240mm f5.6 Nikon W & 360mm Tele-Xenar. Ironically I now have spare Linhof, Wista, Toyo & Chinese boards I could switch the lenses to but what's the point when they work fine as they are.

I don't have a Technika III - the later Technika style boards have a circular lip on the back, a sort of light baffle but a flat panels works fine with my Wista 45DX, it would be easy to glue a ring on the back if needed (I'd get a piston ring of the correct diameter and make a jig to get it positioned correctly). I make a lot of lens boards and just get stuck in - they always work fine.

My 3 5x4 MPP MicroTechnical cameras all early Technika clones use pre-Anniversary and Aninnversary Speed Graphic sized boards, it's odd because the cameras were based on the Technika (part of WWII war reparations), like the MPP Micrord - a Rolleicord clone and the Reid - Leica clones.

Ian

DREW WILEY · Aug 9, 2017

Most of us wouldn't classify a 210 as particularly long for 4x5. But if you want a real modern tiny gem, it would be the 200 Nikkkor M. The 180 Fuji A is even smaller. In the mid range, the 240 Fuji A is tiny and wonderful. In 300mm, Nikkor M and Fuji C are very compact in no.1 shutter and optically superb.

MikeS · Aug 24, 2017

One lens that's commonly used on Linhofs is the Schneider Tele-Xenar 360mm f5.5 lens. It's a big lens, but you can usually find them fairly inexpensively used, and might even be able to get one already mounted in the Technika III lens board. I have one that I use on my Technika IV, and I even have the focusing cam so I can use the rangefinder to focus it using the rangefinder, something that comes in handy sometimes!

-MikeS

jimgalli · Aug 30, 2017

240mm f9A is your best answer, but; a little education. Maximum aperture is a physical limitation of the shutter. A Copal 0 only has 24mm max. So that 24mm wide open chokes down the maximum aperture mathematically in relation to focal length. If you could squeeze a 300mm lens into a Copal 0, the math is simple 300 divided by 24 gives you a maximum possibility of f12.5 wide open The Fuji 240 divided into 24 should be f10, but they squeeze a tiny bit more and get f9 by playing some magnification games. A 210mm divided by 24 gives f8.75 or round it up to f9. And so on. The 203mm Kodak is legendary. A really good solution if 203 is long enough. If not, Schneider once upon a time made what they called a Repro Claron. It was 210mm f9 and drops into a Copal 0. 210 G-Claron was Copal 1, but the Repro Claron (less common) same length was Copal 0. And the Fuji 240 f9A is one of the sharpest lenses ever made bar none.

Dan Fromm · Aug 31, 2017

jimgalli said:
Schneider once upon a time made what they called a Repro Claron. It was 210mm f9 and drops into a Copal 0.

That's what I thought too, until earlier this year, when I bought one. They're not all alike. My new treasure's cells are too wide fit a #0. Or a #1. Or, even though the cell spacing would be wrong, an Ilex #3. Fat little thing.

Long lens suggestions copal 0 (4x5)

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