Long lasting paper developer

Pragmatist said:

Now I'm really confused, which is not very unusual... I am about to embark on a 130 adventure, having bought the PF kit. I have concluded that if I like it, the chemicals will simply be bought in bulk. This ensures fresh chemistry and by buying bulk chemistry for other formulas I like, will build over time a functional "chemical supply closet" for the preparation of many different mixes. This was the way it was when I started an aeon ago, and had access to the chemical lab storeroom...

My confusion is this; PF states that one does not want to order Glycin in quantities greater than will be consumed in about 6 months. Is this stuff more stable in stock solution than in raw, dry form? Devious minds want to know by ordering time....

Click to expand...

Glycin works fine as it ages. No sweat. But why not accept that photo chems, like vegetables, are better fresh ?

How hard is it to mix a little fresh developer from scratch before a printing session ?
Not very. Economy, security.... hard to beat.

Amazing, too, how print quality goes up when you're in control and not wondering what's going to happen.

.

dancqu said:

And keep it that way when in trays. Larry Of Main's way.
Larry's two bath print developing technique is one I keep
in mind. I've a two bath in mind where a second alkaline,
as with Larry's, serves rather than water for adjusting
a paper's gradient. I process paper one-shot so I
might just get away with it.

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I'm not familiar with the specific "Larry of Main's" technique you mention, but wouldn't the incorporated developer in most modern papers contaminate the "A" bath, thus eliminating many of the benefits of a two-bath developer? Of course, if you're using a non-DI paper, this isn't an issue....

130 it is.

Thanks all for the replies. It seems that I will try to mix up a batch of Ansco 130 from a kit. Its been an unusual year, I've been using stock solutions for the last 3 years, but this year I've made DIYodinal and just received a batch of stuff to make some D23. Six months ago I'd never dreamed of mixing my own stuff. Just another new avenue to amuse myself, I guess.

Eric

I hope you like it.

I get 100 grams of glycin once in awhile. It's enough to make 9 litres of stock solution with a gram to spare. (Well, 0.4 in my case since I am a bit of a klutz.) The stock will easily last a year or more and since you dilute it 1:1 for most usages, it gets used up quickly enough anyway.

srs5694 said:

I'm not familiar with the specific "Larry of Main's" technique
you mention, but wouldn't the incorporated developer in most
modern papers contaminate the "A" bath, thus eliminating many
of the benefits of a two-bath developer? Of course, if you're
using a non-DI paper, this isn't an issue....

Click to expand...

First, insofar as affecting print development, I consider the
matter of DI emulsions a fiction. I don't recall a single post
of the many many I've read where interference with
development has been mentioned.

Second, I've not read in any data sheets of DI emulsions
designed for activation processing. Where it is mentioned
it seems to be associated with some unspecified purpose.

Perhaps DI and RC do or did go together with machine
processing. I do know that Freestyle assured me that
NONE of their Graded were of the DI type.

But I'm glad you brought up the subject as I've been
meaning to confirm the fiction. I'll do that with exposure
and development in a strongly carbonated solution. Dan

dancqu said:

First, insofar as affecting print development, I consider the
matter of DI emulsions a fiction. I don't recall a single post
of the many many I've read where interference with
development has been mentioned.

Second, I've not read in any data sheets of DI emulsions
designed for activation processing. Where it is mentioned
it seems to be associated with some unspecified purpose.

Perhaps DI and RC do or did go together with machine
processing. I do know that Freestyle assured me that
NONE of their Graded were of the DI type.

But I'm glad you brought up the subject as I've been
meaning to confirm the fiction. I'll do that with exposure
and development in a strongly carbonated solution. Dan

Click to expand...

Dan, other guys;

I have published a test for DI papers elsewhere on APUG. When you run this test, you can observe a brownish color begin to appear in the applied basic solution. This is oxidized developer migrating from the paper into the alkaline solution. There is a different amount in each paper, so this brown color varies with alkali and paper, but it is there.

It does react rapidly with the paper and it does diffuse out into the developer solution.

Whether it is significant in the develpment process or whether it affects the developer itself, I cannot say, as I have not tested it for either of these. I have just tested for presence or abscence in a given paper.

In Kodak papers, the paper blackens instantly, but with Ilford the paper slowly turns grey, so the developing agent is either different or at different concentrations in these two papers.

PE

I had a lot of experience with paper designed for stabilization processing between 1970-1980. When my machine broke down, or when I didn't have all the chemicals I needed for it, I would simply throw a handful of washing soda in a tray of water and use that as developer. I usually fixed the paper anyway, and the washing soda in strong enough solution did as well as the official stuff in a tray. IIRC, home brew developer for the machine needed some hydroxide to make it work fast enough. Later, I tried this trick with some of the RC paper that had DI, but it was not so successful. I think the fiber base of the Kodak special paper had a bearing on it.

Eric Mac said:

Are there any paper developers with a long shelf life (like HC110 or Rodinal for film) on the market? I develop film fairly regularly, but only get into the darkroom every two or three months.

Thanks
Eric

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Splitting any developer formula (as Tom Hoskinson suggests) so that the alkaline activator is in a separate bottle or box will enable you to keep developers a long time.

I use a 3X concentrated E-72 formula (a Phenidone-Ascorbic acid version of the venerable D-72 or Dektol) in which I leave out the Sodium Carbonate to be added when I get ready to actually use it. The concentrate has a low pH (around 5-5.5) and so keeps very well for many months.

Actually, you can use HC110 as a paper developer too. Play around to get your dilution right, but it works just fine.

Larry

Originally Posted by srs5694
I'm not familiar with the specific "Larry of Main's" technique
you mention, but wouldn't the incorporated developer in most
modern papers contaminate the "A" bath, thus eliminating many
of the benefits of a two-bath developer? Of course, if you're
using a non-DI paper, this isn't an issue....

Click to expand...

I think I'm the "Larry of Main"[sic] in the above contribution. The technique, about which I've written several times, is called divided development. It consisted of separating the developing agents from the activator (alkaline, e.g. carbonate) into two baths. In Bath A (developing ingredients, e.g. metol, hydroquinone, bromide), no visible image appears since there is no alkaline activator. Nor is it necessary to pay attention to time and temperature. Any time and just about any temperature will do. All that happens is that the latent image in the emulsion will absorb the necessary amount of developer to fully develop the image when it hits Bath B, the activator.

In Bath B, (no rinse between) the image fairly "pops" into view, and in a very short time, i.e. about 20 seconds is as fully developed as it will ever get. You can leave the paper in the tray as long as you want, but it will only ever develop until all the developer absorbed in Bath A is fully activated and then it stops.

This is a great technique when you live in an area where darkroom and water temperatures are hard to control. I stumbled on it in an old Dignan newsletter many years ago while living in the tropics and found myself frustrated by ambient water temps around 85F. It's also good, as I subsequently discovered, for controlling contrast, especially with graded papers. By having two trays of Bath A--one a "soft" formula such as Selectol (no HQ) and another "hard" or "normal" formula (e.g. D-72 or Ansco 125), I could arrive at intermediate contrast grades with graded papers. If I wanted a 1 1/2 grade, I ran a sheet of #2 paper through the soft Bath A and then into Bath B. If I wanted a 2 1/2 grade, I ran a #3 paper through the soft Bath A. Etc.

Through Ryuji's and others' comments, I've now become convinced that this two-bath technique is no longer necessary for multicontrast papers. So I'm back to a one-bath technique now, since virtually all my printing is on multicontrast. However, for graded papers or for locations where temps are hard to control, the two bath technique is great.

Larry

PS. Somewhere in the Articles or Chemistry recipes section, you'll find my longer article and some formulas for two-bath developers.

Maine-iac said:

Actually, you can use HC110 as a paper developer too. Play around to get your dilution right, but it works just fine.

Larry

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3/4 oz HC110 syrup + 1 tbs washing soda in 1.5 quarts water works very well IIRC. Make that 25 ml HC110 + 15 cc washing soda in 1.5 liters.