Long lasting developer

super_claret · Sep 7, 2023

I’m looking for a liquid developer with a long shelf life. By long life, I mean multiple years. I shoot mainly Ilford FP4, HP5 and occasionally Ilford Delta 3200 and also some Fuji Acros.
Is there such a developer available, which is suited to normal developing and push/pull, should I ever need it?

I’ve read about people using Rodinal which is 10 years old and still working fine but understand the original Agfa version is no longer available, although Adox Adinol is supposed to be the same? Would Rodinal work as a do it all developer?

I don’t print in the darkroom, I scan and print digitally.

Thanks in advance.

madNbad · Sep 7, 2023

Ilfotec HC
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-hc-110-and-ilfotec-hc-price-difference.201479/

foc · Sep 7, 2023

Besides Adox Rodinal/Adinol (the name can change depending on the market in which it is sold), there is Ilfotec HC and Bellini Eco HC.
Both of these are a version of Kodak HC110 which has a very long shelf life.
Of course any developer will last longer if air is kept away from it, which means that you can expel air from the bottle by using a spray like Protectan or using marbles in the bottle.

L Gebhardt · Sep 7, 2023

Pyrocat MC in glycol will last years if stored in full glass bottles. I’ve used 20 year old HC110 that’s partially full in the original plastic bottles and found it produced good results (but I’m not sure if lost anything from fresh).

Recently I found two bottles of 8 year old Ansco 130 in glass bottles with rubber stoppers. It was still the same straw color as fresh and worked perfectly. I think glass is the best way to maximize storage life of a developer. Rubber corks have also proven to work very well, but cone type screw on caps on Boston brown bottles are also showing promise.

juan · Sep 7, 2023

PC-TEA

Oldwino · Sep 7, 2023

Diafine.

Rick A · Sep 7, 2023

Which ever developer you choose will have an effect on not just grain, but actual film speed as well. I prefer PMK Pyro but it doesn't afford box speed. Lately I've been playing with L-110 (Legacy version of HC-110) and like the results plus I can shoot at listed speeds. Usually I tell people to pick one film and one developer and learn the combination to it's full potential, but there are times when one film and a couple of developers works out better. The time to decide is before you press the shutter release. Of course, that works best for LF, shooting roll film requires the entire roll be shot in similar lighting situations. Rodinal always cost one full stop in speed plus grainy, long shelf life. D-76 is versatile, good all around developer, short shelf life. HC-110 is a good choice for your want list, I'm using L-110 which is similar at half the price. PMK Pyro has a very long shelf life.

removedacct3 · Sep 7, 2023

juan said:
PC-TEA

Juan, Phenidone in Propylene Glycole does not last longer than a few months before it turns dark and loses (some) activity. Does TEA preserve Phenidone's activity better and longer?

ntenny · Sep 7, 2023

MrclSchprs said:
Juan, Phenidone in Propylene Glycole does not last longer than a few months before it turns dark and loses (some) activity. Does TEA preserve Phenidone's activity better and longer?

This is not my experience with phenidone in PG. I’ve had a solution on the shelf for several years that’s still light yellow and seemed to be showing normal activity at last use—I haven’t done rigorous tests though.

Maybe it’s down to the amount of air in the bottle? Mine has very little headroom.

-NT

chuckroast · Sep 7, 2023

L Gebhardt said:
Pyrocat MC in glycol will last years if stored in full glass bottles. I’ve used 20 year old HC110 that’s partially full in the original plastic bottles and found it produced good results (but I’m not sure if lost anything from fresh).

Recently I found two bottles of 8 year old Ansco 130 in glass bottles with rubber stoppers. It was still the same straw color as fresh and worked perfectly. I think glass is the best way to maximize storage life of a developer. Rubber corks have also proven to work very well, but cone type screw on caps on Boston brown bottles are also showing promise.

I strongly concur with this. Storing active chemistry in brown glass bottles has served me well, though I don't know if the 'brown' part matters all that much. I use bottles that have "polycone" type caps which can be taken apart and cleaned thoroughly and offer a strong, positive seal.

I make Pyrocat-HD in glycol and it has - thus far - held up for well over a year. I'm told that it can last much longer than that.

HC-110 absolutely would last forever, but at some point started to precipitate out. I transferred what I had left into the aforementioned bottles. However, the newer stuff from "Kodak" (Sinopromise) is reported to not have the same consistency so who knows what it will do over time.

If I were not using Pyrocat-HD, I'd use D-23 1:1 or DK-50 1:1 if I wanted long shelf life. I've used both of these for upwards of a year and they work just fine if you stay within the recommended capacity limits. With DK-50 1:1, I've used fresh developer to self-replenish and that seemed to be no problem.

removedacct3 · Sep 7, 2023

ntenny said:
This is not my experience with phenidone in PG. I’ve had a solution on the shelf for several years that’s still light yellow and seemed to be showing normal activity at last use—I haven’t done rigorous tests though.

Maybe it’s down to the amount of air in the bottle? Mine has very little headroom.

-NT

How do you deal with an open bottle? Propanol/Butanol protective gas?

Now that I think of it, another reason could be the quality of the PG used. It is hard for me to judge the PG quality. 99+% PG should be 99+ whether it is from eBay or a a dedicated lab shop.

faberryman · Sep 7, 2023

chuckroast said:
If I were not using Pyrocat-HD, I'd use D-23 1:1 or DK-50 1:1 if I wanted long shelf life. I've used both of these for upwards of a year and they work just fine if you stay within the recommended capacity limits. With DK-50 1:1, I've used fresh developer to self-replenish and that seemed to be no problem.

You could also mix up less, so you use it before it goes bad.

Sirius Glass · Sep 7, 2023

XTOL or replenished XTOL which I have had mixed for five years. One much tightly seal out the air and for that I use StopLossBags from StopLossBags.com

relistan · Sep 7, 2023

MrclSchprs said:
How do you deal with an open bottle? Propanol/Butanol protective gas?

Now that I think of it, another reason could be the quality of the PG used. It is hard for me to judge the PG quality. 99+% PG should be 99+ whether it is from eBay or a a dedicated lab shop.

I'm with @ntenny, my developer in propylene glycol lasts a long time. It turns a straw/light yellow color after a few months but no darker. Activity does not seem impacted.

pentaxuser · Sep 7, 2023

super_claret, based on what you have told us I'd that by far the best developer for you and your needs is Rodinal from an ease of use point of view and push/pulling plus longevity With 35mm film there may be a sacrifice in graininess but a lot will depend on the size of prints you make, assuming that you intend to print some negatives and not just have a library of scans that you keep and view on a screen

I only darkroom print and feel that my 35mm negs look fine as prints up to 8x10. If you use a medium format camera then bigger prints are perfectly possible in my opinion. You get what is called "acutance" with Rodinal i.e. a kind of edge sharpness between light and dark edges on the negative that you may or may not like

I bought a bottle of Rodinal in 2005 and it is still going strong. In a 250ml tank 5ml at 1+50 is fine for a 36 frame film cassette or a 8,12 or 15/16 frame MF negative depending on the MF camera

You even have the option of stand/semi-stand development at 1+100 or 1+200 in my opinion

pentaxuser

juan · Sep 7, 2023

To various above posts: TEA seems to preserve the icons for a long time for me. I store in amber glass bottles and don't worry about the small amount of air in the bottle. Gerald Koch years ago told me that clear glass containers kept in a dark cabinet worked just as well. My dry chemicals in common Mason jars - for home canning - and stored in a dark closet work well. Just keep an eye out for lid corrusion.

pentaxuser · Sep 7, 2023

What's a Mason jar, juan or anyone else?

Thanks

pentaxuser

MattKing · Sep 7, 2023

pentaxuser said:
What's a Mason jar, juan or anyone else?

Thanks

pentaxuser

A jar used for canning, like these two:

cerber0s · Sep 7, 2023

pentaxuser said:
You even have the option of stand/semi-stand development at 1+100 or 1+200 in my opinion

I love the look of the negatives I’ve done in Rodinal 1:200.

L Gebhardt · Sep 7, 2023

You can get plastic lids with water tight seals for mason jars. That should stop the corrosion.

I’ve also been testing out Kombucha bottles. The Kombucha we can get at the grocery store comes in 500ml or 1500ml thick clear glass with a somewhat wide mouth. The darkroom is dark even with the door open so I’m not too worried about the clear glass. The caps seem like large soda bottle caps, so I may replace them with large rubber stoppers. I may test aging a few 500ml bottles of XTOL just to get an idea of shelf life in glass. In PET it seems good for up to about a year. Hopefully glass is longer.

pentaxuser · Sep 7, 2023

Thanks Matt I had never heard of Mason jars and had expected not to be able to find the U.K. equivalent but I did. Initially they look just like any other glass jar with a screwtop lid but then Wikipedia came to my rescue. What makes them different and better for storage is the detachable inner metal ring on the jar to which the lid fits as opposed to the usual glass jar with a very coarse thread in glass

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Sep 7, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Matt I had never heard of Mason jars and had expected not to be able to find the U.K. equivalent but I did. Initially they look just like any other glass jar with a screwtop lid but then Wikipedia came to my rescue. What makes them different and better for storage is the detachable inner metal ring on the jar to which the lid fits as opposed to the usual glass jar with a very coarse thread in glass

pentaxuser

Just another reason to hop over and visit your former colonies while picking up lenses and film. But take warning that English has not been spoken here for years.

ant! · Sep 7, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Matt I had never heard of Mason jars and had expected not to be able to find the U.K. equivalent but I did. Initially they look just like any other glass jar with a screwtop lid but then Wikipedia came to my rescue. What makes them different and better for storage is the detachable inner metal ring on the jar to which the lid fits as opposed to the usual glass jar with a very coarse thread in glass

pentaxuser

Mason jars are just a brand of North American canning jars with screw tops. In Germany, with a bit different lid, these would be Weck jars (with a rubber ring which seals only after boiling the air out, so not excatly useful in our case, but you get the idea...). I guess every corner of the world has something somehow comparable with a long history, some might work while others don't.

john_s · Sep 7, 2023

I would avoid metal lids for long term developer storage, as corroded metal compounds could be chemically active.
For the OP, D-23 mixed from powder as needed using simple spoon measurement of two ingredients that don't have to be measured precisely might be an option.

pentaxuser · Sep 7, 2023

john_s said:
I would avoid metal lids for long term developer storage, as corroded metal compounds could be chemically active.
For the OP, D-23 mixed from powder as needed using simple spoon measurement of two ingredients that don't have to be measured precisely might be an option.

D-23 might be fine but the OP is looking for a liquid developer and assuming he were to accept the benefits that D23 confers in terms of simplicity of make-up it would seem we already have a difference of opinion as to the advisability of metal lids due to the danger of the chemical activity of corrosion of said lids

So can I ask what the evidence is that (a) metal corrosion occurs in jars with metal lids that are opened reasonably frequently in normal household conditions?

If it's a serious and likely occurrence then it is right to raise it, possibly, despite his stipulation that he is looking for liquid developers only but if not then we are introducing doubts and uncertainty into what I imagine the OP was hoping to be his reasonably straightforward thread with reasonably certain answers

I have no idea of the extent of the OP's chemical and processing knowledge but I got the impression he simply wanted our answers to be relatively simple and directed at his "wants" as stipulated

To that end it might have been better if I had not even asked about Mason jars nor about the pros and cons of metal lids for storage of film chemicals as powders

Maybe the best advice to keep it simple is that if he were to consider D23 he should simply store his 2 powders of metol and sodium sulphite in the containers in which they arrive

pentaxuser

Long lasting developer

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency