Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

Alex Hawley · Apr 30, 2007

Andrew O'Neill said:
Not wanting to be a party pooper, but I'm sure this paper once made available to us will be sold at a premium...

And your point is???? Are you forgetting that a very substantial investment of money and time has been made in order to do this? Have you checked the price of Ilford Gallerie or Ilford Warmtone paper recently? Or any of the Kodak 8x10 films?

John Bartley · Apr 30, 2007

Andrew O'Neill said:
Not wanting to be a party pooper, but I'm sure this paper once made available to us will be sold at a premium...

Hmmm ... well, I'm a founding member of the cheapskates club, but .... I hope that M&P make a good solid profit on this paper making venture so that they will be tempted to keep on making it ... so that i can keep on buying it ... oh yeah .. I'm also a founding member of the selfish club

cheers

Michael A. Smith · Apr 30, 2007

The prices for the new Lodima Fine Art paper have already been announced and are available to anyone who wants to contact me personally--through a personal email or through the Azo Forum at www.michaelandpaula.com. I have a difficult time getting to "PMs" here. Anyone can look at the Azo prices posted at www.michaelandpaula.com for 8x10 and 20x24--the sizes that were last available from Kodak. You can calculate prices for other sizes--11x14, 8x20, others, by calculating the price per square inch and multiplying. You will be pretty close, if not exactly correct. I will be posting the prices once we do have final pricing.

The prices will be the same as for what Azo sold for. At least to start and for those who pre-prder. At this point, we will solicit additional pre-orders when we need to send the money for the paper. We already have many pre-orders, for which we are very grateful (without them we could not have gone forward). These, plus additional pre-orders when the paper is ready to be shipped to us, plus the sales of our (mine and Paula's) Azo Portfolio should enable us to get to even.

If, because of the decline of the dollar versus other currencies, we cannot cover the cost of the paper, we may have to raise the price a little, but we sure do not want to do that--and we would only do that if we cannot meet the costs. Should that be the case, we would much prefer to make additional sales, rather than raise the price. Raising the price would be an absolute last resort.

jiggler · Jun 15, 2007

Is there any further and current information (as of June 15, 2007) concerning the status and availability of Lodima?

SAShruby · Jun 15, 2007

Michael, At least my 5kg of amidol is not going down to toilet. Good work. You know I made a pre-order, my location just changed from Ontario to Vancouver.

If you need help financially, I can pay my order today. And, I'm going to increase order to additional 5 boxes of 20x24, 2 grade 2 and 3 grade 3. That should keep me up and running for 5 years. Talk to you soon.

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 15, 2007

Excellent News, Michael! I will review the quantities and sizes I ordered and I will probably be sending you a check for some additional paper.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 18, 2007

Are you forgetting that a very substantial investment of money and time has been made in order to do this?

Precisely my point.

z-man · Jul 11, 2007

age and ripening of gelatine emulsions

PHOTOTONE said:
I wonder if this is the case for ALL photo papers, or just the paper made in the particular plant that Lodima will be made at? Surely Kodak, Ilford and Fuji (big three) have air conditioning and humidity control to be able to continuously make paper products year round? I know Lodima will be made by a smaller factory, but wouldn't all film and paper factories have the facilities to make their products year round?

i haven't touched a sheet of azo in twenty yrs -----BUT-

if azo was the last comercially made emulsion that was a modern child of the original gaslight papers(i dont know-ask photo engineer) then it was a formula that has dffernt aging characteristics than the modern emulsions which are full of restrainers that allow non-refrigerated storage

film emulsions must be refrigerated to retard age ripening which causes speed and contrast changes even in the newest emulsions

there are many people who are hand coating supports with emulsion formulas that are the same as the original gaslight papers that azo was emulating

these formulas are made when needed and aged to the state that is required for the specific end in mind-used fresh it is one speed and contrast- a 1 week ripening is more stable but dffernt and so on and so on

this pertains to the emulsion before it is coated, and also to the emulsion after it is coated on the support

this is usually a plain silver/salt gelatine emulsion-mostly uv sensative -and it may be modified with iodides and bromides-even the differnce between chrome alum as a hardener and potasium alum affect these ageing characteristics and the speed and contrast

i guess since this work is mostly done in countries that don't speak english that is why you folks are not aware of being able to make your own azo precursors and modify them to be azo if you wish

ask photo engineer-ron will tell all he knows

thanx for the time and attention

vaya con dios

juan · Jul 11, 2007

Imam z-man,
I don't know much about technical details, but I do know that Kodak Azo had a good reputation for being good many years after its expiration date regardless of storage. There are documented cases of Azo being perfectly fine after decades of sitting around at room temperature in places with 100F summers. So, perhaps Azo incorporated restrainers, too.
juan

z-man · Jul 11, 2007

on the mark

juan said:
Imam z-man,
I don't know much about technical details, but I do know that Kodak Azo had a good reputation for being good many years after its expiration date regardless of storage. There are documented cases of Azo being perfectly fine after decades of sitting around at room temperature in places with 100F summers. So, perhaps Azo incorporated restrainers, too.
juan

que tal juanito?

you are absolutely correct-i said that azo was "emulating" the previous gas lite papers--at least that was what i meant to say

i don't know what this new paper is but it shure sounds like a gelatine that has not been stable-ized by age in warehouse-i'm sure that they are doing a great job and are trying to make the best replacement they can for azo-it was wonderful stuf but its dead and gone

if we can interest pe in this thread ron will corrct me and we will all learn the real deal

i like to try to make people aware of the history of developement of materials--- and to try to make your own so you can always have what you need

i say go right to the gas light papers and roll your own like saul bolanyos

how's the glue? gooey? pm me i got some sources for ya

vaya con dios

Photo Engineer · Jul 11, 2007

Any contact paper that will be made will only be Azo like paper, not Azo paper. It will not have the same tinted support, the same keeping, the same reciprocity and etc that Kodak had. It may be better or worse in any of these. IDK and I cannot predict.

Kodak had 2 Azo papers, made in two plants. This is not untypical.

PE

z-man · Jul 12, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Any contact paper that will be made will only be Azo like paper, not Azo paper. It will not have the same tinted support, the same keeping, the same reciprocity and etc that Kodak had. It may be better or worse in any of these. IDK and I cannot predict.

Kodak had 2 Azo papers, made in two plants. This is not untypical.

PE

pe-what were the differences if any-intentional/unintentional? between the 2 azo's?-i only remember that i liked the base tintand emulsion color

like i said-its been 20 yrs-the same time i was using 20x24 ektaflex -

(for my personal work i was using the neg as the finished art)

i think i used more dupont and fuji films at that time tho-kodak was the winner in paper for final output

the holes in my head from last summer's crash and burn make me very frustrated

i dont think i know anyone who is trying to duplicate azo-just looking to get some of the nice features but that is a personal take on each and every aspect

support color and texture maybe more important to many artists than the emulsion

vaya con dios

Photo Engineer · Jul 12, 2007

All Kodak paper supports had pigment tints incorporated in them to give a certain tone to the product. Azo was not unique in this respect.

Kodak made Azo in at least two plants. IDK the details but the curves and speeds were slightly different due to the vagaries of making emulsions in different sites. I have seen this myself making my own Azo like paper in 3 locations.

PE

noseoil · Jul 12, 2007

PE, what was it about azo which made the age problem with many papers not a factor for azo? If the current (new) paper needs to age, did Kodak age its azo for some initial time period, then find it had levelled out and stopped changing? This is still confusing. The old azo does keep well (I still have a stash) and not change much, if at all, for many years. Why was this possible with azo, but a large problem with many other papers?

If the new paper needs to age after being manufactured, won't this also indicated that keeping properties over many years may be different than azo? tim

Photo Engineer · Jul 12, 2007

AFAIK, Kodak did not age Azo paper. It, like just about all products, was usable off the end of a coating machine. Otherwise, how could we make it. You have to have an aim, not a moving target. This is a common misconception in the photo community, that products age into a 'good' situation. They can be made that way but all to often, they keep going until they spoil.

In my time at Kodak, I know of two common situations where this did happen. Ektachrome Type "R" paper had bumps in the curve due to the use of 9 emulsions. Over 6 months the bumps evened out, but there was no gross change in speed or contrast. It did have a finite lifetime and needed refrigeration. In the second broader case, products hardened with formalin gradually lost speed and contrast and gained in fog. Otherwise they were stable for a few years and gradually went into fog due to heat and radiation as well as the formalin. We see the problems with heat and radiation in some products today.

If a product is built to change, it continues to change. There is no magic signal that goes off in the coating that says "stop today". If it is built to be stable, then it remains stable.

My own Azo type paper is identical the day I coat it and up to 6 months later. There is no significant change that I see. And, I'm not doing anything special except what is expected in emulsion making. I can make it more stable or less stable by treatments common to emulsion making and coating.

Without knowing the M&P emulsion formula, all I can say is that I have seen this type of behavior and found it due to either one of several possible conditions. But I would be guessing if I tried to diagnose it.

PE

Captain_joe6 · Sep 11, 2007

Been a couple of months now, and fall is approaching, and we all hopefully know what that could mean!

Michael, any new news to share on the development of this long and anxiously awaited paper?

Tom Hoskinson · Sep 14, 2007

Captain_joe6 said:
Been a couple of months now, and fall is approaching, and we all hopefully know what that could mean!

Michael, any new news to share on the development of this long and anxiously awaited paper?

Take a look here: http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/newpaper.html

I'm sending Michael and Paula a check for an additional thousand sheets of the new Lodima paper. It takes a substantial amount of money and effort to start and sustain a project like this one.

juan · Sep 14, 2007

Tom, I don't see anything new in that link. As for sending a check, I sent one about a year and a half ago that has still not been cashed. When I inquired, Michael said they were not cashing the checks until they could deliver paper - a practice I find commendable.

As we've seen with other projects, making a new photo product is a bit more daunting than most of us had imagined. I'm willing to wait - and to help in any way I can.
juan

Michael A. Smith · Sep 14, 2007

Yes this whole project is even more than a bit daunting, but we have been making progress and are VERY hopeful that we will eventually have a most superior paper. We want this paper for ourselves as well as for the greater LF photography community, and those of you who know us know that we are more than a little demanding. We will not stop working at getting it right until the paper is at least as good as Azo was. And we are hoping it will be as good as the Azo from the older days.

Thanks for everyone's support. We will need tons of $ when the time comes to actually pay for the paper. We have a fair amount of advance orders, but we will need more. At the time we need the $ we will ask for furhter advance orders. For now, we are just gathering names of those who will be wanting the paper.

We want to keep the price of this paper the same as the price for Azo. But because the dollar has fallen significantly against the Euro it is likely that the paper will need to be sold at a higher price. We are resolved, however, to keep the price the same for all pre-orders. The only way we will not do that is in the case that if we did not raise the price there was no way we could pay for the paper.

Again, thanks for everyone's support. Alone, Paula and I could not begin to do this.

Michael A. Smith

Michael A. Smith · Nov 27, 2007

Status of Lodima Fine Art update 11/27/07

Lodima Fine Art (Azo replacement) update:

Paula and I are making good progress. Still more testing to be done, however. Because of our travel schedule, we may not be able to do the next round of testing until late January. It is possible that we could have paper by summer or, because of our travel schedule, by early fall.

Michael A. Smith

Buster6X6 · Nov 27, 2007

Good news Michael, thanks for the update.

Cheers Greg

jgjbowen · Nov 27, 2007

Keeping the old fingers crossed on this one. Thanks for keeping us informed!

John

Ian Leake · Nov 28, 2007

Yes, this is definitely good news. (And I hope Photo Paris went well.)

photo8x10 · Nov 28, 2007

Good News, thanks for your update, my finger are always crossed!!!!

Stefano

John Bartley · Nov 28, 2007

I'm also waiting and will continue to Michael. When it arrives I'll still be on the buyers list.

cheers and thank you !!

Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

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