Loading Leica M5

Richard Jepsen · Feb 28, 2022

I have run 6 rolls through a (new to me) M5. Previously I owned a MP for 20 years. I’m loading the M5 per the baseplate image, I wind on 3 frames. Replace the base plate and back wind the film into the canister to snug it up. I fire off 2 frames and on the last frame the film transport slips. That requires a rewind and another attempt to load. Today I experienced 5 attempts with mis loads. It seems TMax gives me the most issues.

Any suggestions?

madNbad · Feb 28, 2022

Load the M5 the same way as any other Leica with the Rapid Load system. Drop the film in, draw it across to the tulip, replace the baseplate and wind twice. Just make sure the cassette is all the way in the chamber.

DonW · Feb 28, 2022

I always put a bend into the last half inch so one of the "petals" grabs it as it turns.

Huss · Mar 1, 2022

Just follow Leica's very basic, very simple instructions. As MadnBad says.
Winding it on with the base plate off - "to make sure it loads correctly" - is a big mistake as it needs the tulip on the bottom of the base plate to correctly position AND tension the film.

Why is it that people just don't follow Leica's instructions?

beemermark · Mar 1, 2022

Huss said:
Just follow Leica's very basic, very simple instructions. As MadnBad says.
Winding it on with the base plate off - "to make sure it loads correctly" - is a big mistake as it needs the tulip on the bottom of the base plate to correctly position AND tension the film.

Why is it that people just don't follow Leica's instructions?

Yup. Leave the back closed when loading. Don't bend the film between the sprockets (not needed). I think the manual says you only need to insert the tongue into one tulip but most people put all the way through.

Pieter12 · Mar 1, 2022

There could be an issue with the tulip. It is replaceable, you could take it out and inspect it.

Richard Jepsen · Mar 1, 2022

I loaded the film as post 2 suggested. I always snug up the film, backwinding to check if the leader is pulled forward when winding. I think it worked. I did see the film advance. When I shoot tomorrow I can confirm if there is slippage.

250swb · Mar 2, 2022

Richard Jepsen said:
I loaded the film as post 2 suggested. I always snug up the film, backwinding to check if the leader is pulled forward when winding. I think it worked. I did see the film advance. When I shoot tomorrow I can confirm if there is slippage.

I hope it works, simply doing what it says under the baseplate should work flawlessly each time. But irrespective of 'read the instructions' there is in the film advance mechanism a clutch and this may be faulty. If it slips again try loading the film and advancing it without the baseplate on so you can see what is happening, ok, you waste a few frames or even a roll.

Nitroplait · Mar 2, 2022

Most people new to the tulip spool over-think the loading process. With the exception of needing a third hand to hold the baseplate when loading, it is deceivingly simple.

Moose22 · Mar 2, 2022

Nitroplait said:
Most people new to the tulip spool over-think the loading process. With the exception of needing a third hand to hold the baseplate when loading, it is deceivingly simple.

Yeah, it's a good improvement over the removable spools.

With new cameras in general I might waste a few frames on the first roll to make sure everything works. Maybe the second roll. But once you've done it here and know it works you can just slide the leader in and go.

Huss · Mar 2, 2022

250swb said:
I hope it works, simply doing what it says under the baseplate should work flawlessly each time. But irrespective of 'read the instructions' there is in the film advance mechanism a clutch and this may be faulty. If it slips again try loading the film and advancing it without the baseplate on so you can see what is happening, ok, you waste a few frames or even a roll.

That is what he was doing which was causing the slippage.
It's because it needs the baseplate attached as the tulip provides correct film tension and placement. "Testing" it without the baseplate on proves nothing as that is not how it is designed to work.

The only time I have EVER had film slippage was when I loaded my M4-2 (the first M I had with the quickload) the incorrect way by winding it on with the baseplate off. Because online 'experts' said that was how to load the film.

I have had zero film load failures since, running hundreds of rolls through my M4-2, M5, MP, M-A, M7, MdA by following Leica's extremely simple and clear instructions. Plus you get to shoot 38 exposures on a 36 exp roll of film, as nothing is wasted!

250swb · Mar 3, 2022

Huss said:
That is what he was doing which was causing the slippage.
It's because it needs the baseplate attached as the tulip provides correct film tension and placement. "Testing" it without the baseplate on proves nothing as that is not how it is designed to work.

The only time I have EVER had film slippage was when I loaded my M4-2 (the first M I had with the quickload) the incorrect way by winding it on with the baseplate off. Because online 'experts' said that was how to load the film.

I have had zero film load failures since, running hundreds of rolls through my M4-2, M5, MP, M-A, M7, MdA by following Leica's extremely simple and clear instructions. Plus you get to shoot 38 exposures on a 36 exp roll of film, as nothing is wasted!

I think you should have thought that through first.

The tulip provides the correct film placement by aligning the films sprocket holes with the cogs on the sprocket wheel (shaft), by pushing the film down and against the light spring inside the film take-up spool. That is all the tulip does, the only tension it applies is passive. If you engage the sprocket holes onto the cogs yourself that does the same thing. It is entirely possible to wind a whole roll of thirty six through the camera and not have the baseplate on, and the film will be tensioned correctly unless there are any other problems with the camera. The point about telling the OP to try without the baseplate on is so he can see if all aspects of the film advance are working together as the film advance lever is wound. So is the take-up spool turning and can it be seen to slip, are the sprocket wheels turning and not slipping. The sprocket shaft is disengaged when the film is rewound, so If for example the sprocket shaft isn't turning it won't be dragging the film through the camera, which in turn would mean the take-up spool won't be taking any film up and give the appearance of it 'slipping'. It wouldn't be out of this world to then suspect the film rewind mechanism which disengages the sprockets isn't reengaging the sprockets when a new film is loaded.

Edit - I assume the OP has made sure the rewind lever is in the 'Up' position when trying to load the film. It should of course snap upright on it's own the first time the advance lever is wound, but if not the film transport sprocket will be disengaged.

Don_ih · Mar 3, 2022

As said directly above, by @250swb, the film slips if the sprocket holes are not being engaged by the sprockets - that's what advances the film. I had the most problem in my M4-2 with Rollei Superpan, which is very thin. I would need to make sure the sprocket holes were lined up, close the back, then put the baseplate on, then advance the film.

In the manual, "The baseplate is designed so that after it is fixed on the camera it adjusts the film in its correct position."

Interestingly, the manual also says the way the film is shown in the diagram inside the camera is only necessary in temperatures below freezing, due to the possibility of film breaking. When it's warmer, you can thread the film all the way through until it touches the wall of the housing.

Huss · Mar 3, 2022

250swb said:
I think you should have thought that through first.

The tulip provides the correct film placement by aligning the films sprocket holes with the cogs on the sprocket wheel (shaft), by pushing the film down and against the light spring inside the film take-up spool. That is all the tulip does, the only tension it applies is passive. If you engage the sprocket holes onto the cogs yourself that does the same thing. It is entirely possible to wind a whole roll of thirty six through the camera and not have the baseplate on, and the film will be tensioned correctly unless there are any other problems with the camera. The point about telling the OP to try without the baseplate on is so he can see if all aspects of the film advance are working together as the film advance lever is wound. So is the take-up spool turning and can it be seen to slip, are the sprocket wheels turning and not slipping. The sprocket shaft is disengaged when the film is rewound, so If for example the sprocket shaft isn't turning it won't be dragging the film through the camera, which in turn would mean the take-up spool won't be taking any film up and give the appearance of it 'slipping'. It wouldn't be out of this world to then suspect the film rewind mechanism which disengages the sprockets isn't reengaging the sprockets when a new film is loaded.

Edit - I assume the OP has made sure the rewind lever is in the 'Up' position when trying to load the film. It should of course snap upright on it's own the first time the advance lever is wound, but if not the film transport sprocket will be disengaged.

Without the baseplate/tulip attached, the film's position and tension is not consistent. It can move laterally.

Either way 'we' are jumping ahead. The OP first needs to see if he has issues now that he is loading the camera correctly.

250swb · Mar 3, 2022

Huss said:
Without the baseplate/tulip attached, the film's position and tension is not consistent. It can move laterally.

Either way 'we' are jumping ahead. The OP first needs to see if he has issues now that he is loading the camera correctly.

The film cannot move laterally once you have the sprockets engaged with the sprocket holes in the film. That is the point of the quick load system, it automatically engages the sprocket holes with the sprockets using the spring inside the take-up spool and the tulip. But it doesn't stop you engaging the sprocket holes yourself before replacing the baseplate, or to leave the baseplate off while investigating possible faults. I think perhaps you 'jumped ahead' wanting to score a point but omitted to check you knew what you were talking about.

Moose22 · Mar 3, 2022

250swb said:
I think perhaps you 'jumped ahead' wanting to score a point but omitted to check you knew what you were talking about.

I don't disagree the first time you have the camera. You look and doublecheck until you're sure.

But I've shot precisely 3 rolls through an M5 and the last roll I just shoved it in the takeup spool and closed it up. Once it's on the sprocket, it's on the sprocket. There's nothing more to do. It does NOT take many repetitions to have that muscle memory down, and you can tell when the film is aligned. It is as low a fuss as most any manual winding camera I've used.

Huss · Mar 3, 2022

250swb said:
The film cannot move laterally once you have the sprockets engaged with the sprocket holes in the film. That is the point of the quick load system, it automatically engages the sprocket holes with the sprockets using the spring inside the take-up spool and the tulip. But it doesn't stop you engaging the sprocket holes yourself before replacing the baseplate, or to leave the baseplate off while investigating possible faults. I think perhaps you 'jumped ahead' wanting to score a point but omitted to check you knew what you were talking about.

Then please explain why doing that can cause slippage even after you replace the baseplate.

Also, kinda rude post, no? Things rough for you today?

250swb · Mar 6, 2022

Huss said:
Then please explain why doing that can cause slippage even after you replace the baseplate.

Also, kinda rude post, no? Things rough for you today?

Where in the quote did I mention 'slippage'? Slippage could maybe occur if the film simply hasn't been loaded properly, which is almost impossible to do, or there is a mechanical problem whereby leaving the baseplate off and looking at what happens as the film is wound on can help the diagnosis. I've explained this earlier in post #12. I think you could help the OP by not confusing the issue on purpose, or worse, without knowing.

250swb · Mar 6, 2022

Moose22 said:
I don't disagree the first time you have the camera. You look and doublecheck until you're sure.

But I've shot precisely 3 rolls through an M5 and the last roll I just shoved it in the takeup spool and closed it up. Once it's on the sprocket, it's on the sprocket. There's nothing more to do. It does NOT take many repetitions to have that muscle memory down, and you can tell when the film is aligned. It is as low a fuss as most any manual winding camera I've used.

Yeah, but we are trying to find a fault with either the OP's method or the camera here, not go around in circles saying how it should work when it clearly doesn't work.

Huss · Mar 8, 2022

Richard Jepsen said:
.. When I shoot tomorrow I can confirm if there is slippage.

Is Richard going to come back and tell us what he found?

Huss · Mar 20, 2022

We lost Richard. This thread was too much.

Trask · Mar 20, 2022

Inspired by this thread, I grabbed my M5 and a roll of Tri-X, and loaded the camera per Leica instructions, following the picture of how the film should be threaded into the take-up spool. Put on the bottom with tulip, advance film, and once again the film had slipped out fo the spool. So I looked at how the film seemed to be able to move about in the spool because the factory load has a tongue — the full width of the film is cut down. I simply trimmed off the tongue, pulled out a bit more film from the cassette, loaded the film into the take-up spool per instructions, put the baseplate with tulip back on, and voila — loaded in a snap, no problems. The fact that the film is full width when placed in the take-up spool make all the difference. For me, problem solved.

250swb · Mar 20, 2022

Trask said:
Inspired by this thread, I grabbed my M5 and a roll of Tri-X, and loaded the camera per Leica instructions, following the picture of how the film should be threaded into the take-up spool. Put on the bottom with tulip, advance film, and once again the film had slipped out fo the spool. So I looked at how the film seemed to be able to move about in the spool because the factory load has a tongue — the full width of the film is cut down. I simply trimmed off the tongue, pulled out a bit more film from the cassette, loaded the film into the take-up spool per instructions, put the baseplate with tulip back on, and voila — loaded in a snap, no problems. The fact that the film is full width when placed in the take-up spool make all the difference. For me, problem solved.

This is just voodoo myth making, it shouldn't be a part of any discussion about the correct way to load an M5. The OP and yourself have your own problems, but don't add into the paranoia. I mean, it's strange how you just did this and it slipped but presumably beforehand it didn't? The tongue of the film has nothing to do with anything, unless you are cack-handed and just get something wrong, but how you do that is a mystery in itself.

madNbad · Mar 22, 2022

When the archivist were beginning to catalog Garry Winogrands' work, they noticed the first frames of many rolls were photos of his feet or knees. It took them a while until one of them realized, how do you load a Leica M4? You turn it upside down, drop the film in, replace the baseplate and wind twice. He followed the process but was efficient enough that he could have saved a frame or two on each roll.

Don_ih · Mar 22, 2022

madNbad said:
Garry Winogrand

If anyone knew how to load a Leica, he did. He just didn't know how to not ignore his exposed film...

Loading Leica M5

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