Lith 'Stripes'

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 7, 2007

I took the plunge on lith printing yesterday, using some Kentmere Kentona paper and Fotospeed lith developer. It was very interesting, and I came out of it with some pretty interesting looking prints.

I did encounter a problem, however. I see 'stripes' across the print that are not there in the silver gelatin print. See the attached pictures.
Any idea what this might be? I'll try to process a sheet of the Kentona in normal chemistry to see if I encounter the same problem.

Do you have any ideas what this might be?

matti · Apr 7, 2007

Can it be the a pattern from the bottom of the tray? Happened to me once.
/matti

Roger Hicks · Apr 7, 2007

matti said:
Can it be the a pattern from the bottom of the tray? Happened to me once.
/matti

Same here.

R.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 7, 2007

Would that tie in with an 'unsafe' safelight accidently fogging the print then? Or chemistry not getting to the emulsion uniformly?
The bottom of the tray has a criss cross pattern.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I think we can eliminate it.

- Thomas

Roger Hicks · Apr 7, 2007

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Would that tie in with an 'unsafe' safelight accidently fogging the print then? Or chemistry not getting to the emulsion uniformly?
The bottom of the tray has a criss cross pattern.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I think we can eliminate it.

- Thomas

Dear Thomas,

Uneven flow with the raised parts different in density from the lower parts. But with a criss-cross bottom, probably not.

Cheers,

R.

Mark Layne · Apr 8, 2007

I can't see the problem on my monitor. I encounter banding very similar to digital banding on some European papers. This is a coating machine problem which does not normally show up on 'high end' papers like Kentona.
If it's non uniform then it's some processing problem such as lack of agitation in too little solution. Lith likes large volumes.
Mark

Annemarieke · Apr 8, 2007

Thomas, maybe you can email Tim Rudman and ask him?
Or wait till he finds your post ;-)

Anne Marieke

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 8, 2007

Thanks Anne Marieke and Mark for your suggestions. I agitate the whole time the print is in the developer bath. Fortunately, Kentona develops rather rapidly, at least compared to the Fomatone and Ilford MGWT papers I also used yesterday.
The banding appears regardless of developer volume. In this case the print is on 8x10 paper in a 10x12 tray with 1 liter of fresh developer and a dash of old brown. The Kentona develops non-uniformly in standard chemistry as well, so I'm sure now that the problem is with the paper, and not the chemistry or my processing. Fomatone and Ilford MGWT both developed fine.

Mark, perhaps you need a monitor with better separation in the shadow details, I see the patterns just fine on my laptop. Below is another exampe from a print I made last night, perhaps it shows up clearer.

kjsphoto · Apr 8, 2007

I don't see the lines either. I know that LCD and CRT are completely different when viewing images. It isn't the monitor, it is the calibration. could you provide a grayscle strip with the image. That way those of us not using a LCD monitor could calibrate to the strip so we can see the image as you do.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 8, 2007

Gray Scale Strip

Kevin,

does this help? I know it's not a 'step' grayscale, but rather the whole spectrum from white to black. It's the best I could render from Photoshop with the Gradient tool. I see the whole scale from white to black on my monitor.

Thanks for the suggestion,

- Thomas

kjsphoto said:
I don't see the lines either. I know that LCD and CRT are completely different when viewing images. It isn't the monitor, it is the calibration. could you provide a grayscle strip with the image. That way those of us not using a LCD monitor could calibrate to the strip so we can see the image as you do.

tim rudman · Apr 9, 2007

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Thanks Anne Marieke and Mark for your suggestions. I agitate the whole time the print is in the developer bath. Fortunately, Kentona develops rather rapidly, at least compared to the Fomatone and Ilford MGWT papers I also used yesterday.
The banding appears regardless of developer volume. In this case the print is on 8x10 paper in a 10x12 tray with 1 liter of fresh developer and a dash of old brown. The Kentona develops non-uniformly in standard chemistry as well, so I'm sure now that the problem is with the paper, and not the chemistry or my processing. Fomatone and Ilford MGWT both developed fine.

Given what you say above Thomas, and the close regular pattern of these lines I would suspect a coating problem, roller marking perhaps. Wht not send the print to Kentmere and see what they say? If they confirm this, at least you know you don't need to waste time on further technique refining tests to try to evercome it. Also, they may well replace your paper if they think you have a faulty batch - they are a very fair company to deal with.
Tim

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 9, 2007

Hi Tim,

thanks for your suggestion. I have contacted Freestyle Photography in the US where I bought the paper, perhaps it would be a better idea to contact Kentmere directly. That's an interesting idea.

Thanks!

- Thomas

tim rudman said:
Given what you say above Thomas, and the close regular pattern of these lines I would suspect a coating problem, roller marking perhaps. Wht not send the print to Kentmere and see what they say? If they confirm this, at least you know you don't need to waste time on further technique refining tests to try to evercome it. Also, they may well replace your paper if they think you have a faulty batch - they are a very fair company to deal with.
Tim

Mark Layne · Apr 9, 2007

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Hi Tim,

thanks for your suggestion. I have contacted Freestyle Photography in the US where I bought the paper, perhaps it would be a better idea to contact Kentmere directly. That's an interesting idea.

Thanks!

- Thomas

Bear in mind Thomas that that banding does not normally show up in prints in normal paper developer.
Mark

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 9, 2007

Hi Mark,

I did print the Kentona in standard Dektol chemistry as well, and the banding did show up, although less prevalent.

I sent Kentmere an email today, I'm curious to see what their response will be. I'm sure they're interested in keeping customers happy, although I have to say I'm probably a very small customer with only a few hundred dollars in business so far. If they resolve this matter nicely, I'm sure it will be more.

Thanks for your suggestions everyone.

- Thomas

batesga · Apr 9, 2007

Thomas wrote:
The Kentona develops non-uniformly in standard chemistry as well, so I'm sure now that the problem is with the paper, and not the chemistry or my processing.

I think also since that banding is such a tight pattern and so even and in line with the paper edges it must be a coating problem or a base paper problem. Almost looks like a ribbed texture... Is the any texture to it? like a slight relief? And you may have performed this basic check already but try a sheet from the other end of the box of paper, Like from the bottom of the box.

kjsphoto · Apr 9, 2007

Tom,

I have used the Kentmere paper in Ansco 130 and it seems to be good in that developer. I haven't tried it in Dektol, but if you do try adding a little more potassium bromide to it.

I had the same problem with Slavich paper using dektol but it always works fine in Ansco 130. Have not tried the Kentona in lith but I am planning on it soon.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 9, 2007

Hey batsega,

thanks for the suggestion. I actually did grab one sheet from the top and one from the bottom, and although it seems like they have the same problem, the bands are not completely alike. When they cut the paper, I am unaware of how they stack them. Is it one long 10" wide strip that they cut into 8" long pieces or perpendicular to that with an 8" wide strip cut into 10" long pieces. Or maybe they just insert a really wide sheet that's cut all at the same time and then piled up at the end of the transport. I'm such a geek. I think I would have loved to come along for the factory tour at Ilford...

- Thomas

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 9, 2007

Hi Kevin,

I don't stock singular chemicals in my darkroom unfortunately, so that's unfortunately something I can't do. Interesting that you didn't have the problem with Ansco 130. I've also played around with Edwal Ultra Black lately, and I had the same results with that. Perhaps the Ansco 130 works differently, I wouldn't know.

Regardless, the Kentona seems like an amazing paper. This is my first experience with it. The base is really pretty, an ivory type of white that I enjoy immensely. I like the tones and how it keeps the highlights together on negs requiring a normal grade 2. The Kentona seems more like a 3, but not all the way there, almost like in between.

I guess if all else fails, I'll get some Ansco 130 for this box...

- Thomas

kjsphoto said:
Tom,

I have used the Kentmere paper in Ansco 130 and it seems to be good in that developer. I haven't tried it in Dektol, but if you do try adding a little more potassium bromide to it.

I had the same problem with Slavich paper using dektol but it always works fine in Ansco 130. Have not tried the Kentona in lith but I am planning on it soon.

kjsphoto · Apr 10, 2007

I also tried the Edwal Ultra Black and had the exact same problem you did. The only developer that worked for me without any issues was the Ansco 130.

You will not regret trying it out!

Kevin

Mark Layne · Apr 10, 2007

I use Neutol WA with Kentona with no problems. I suspect it is a coating problem with one particular batch #
Mark

Lith 'Stripes'

Thomas Bertilsson

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