Lith printing with FOMA 131?

Roy Keane · Jan 16, 2022

Ive been trying to make lith printing happen and....it's not really happening. I've tried all kinds of paper with no luck. Using Arista's A/B liquid lith developer.

After researching, I got some FOMA 131. But I ran into the usual problem (snowballs).

So is 131 no longer lith-able?

I also tried a 90 second bath in hydrogen peroxide before developing...it mostly worked, but still a couple of stray snowballs. Then i tried a 10 minutes bath in warm water before developing. Also reduced snowballs, but didn't eliminate them.

I tried 90 seconds in hydrogen peroxide, then a wipedown with a cotton pad.....this COMPLETELY eliminated the snowballs, but also looks like it slightly smudged the emulsion.

Any other ideas/papers/techniques anyone can think of?

Anyone try to the Modern Lith method?

mooseontheloose · Jan 16, 2022

~~Do you mean Foma paper?~~ I have some old stock of both 131 and 132 that doesn't get snowballs (but a lot of other papers I use get a good dose of pepper grain), but this is something I'm dreading dealing with once that stock runs out. I think you've done all the standard things that people do when dealing with snowballs, your only other options at this point would be to either try a different paper and/or a different developer. I'm intrigued by the Modern Lith method, but haven't tried it yet.

Hopefully there are others who have had more success with this issue that will chime in here.

Lachlan Young · Jan 16, 2022

Have you tried the Moersch chemicals?

Roy Keane · Jan 17, 2022

mooseontheloose said:
~~Do you mean Foma paper?~~ I have some old stock of both 131 and 132 that doesn't get snowballs (but a lot of other papers I use get a good dose of pepper grain), but this is something I'm dreading dealing with once that stock runs out. I think you've done all the standard things that people do when dealing with snowballs, your only other options at this point would be to either try a different paper and/or a different developer. I'm intrigued by the Modern Lith method, but haven't tried it yet.

Hopefully there are others who have had more success with this issue that will chime in here.

Yes...FOMA not FOMO...~~I'm a moron~~ I need a proof-reader.

Roy Keane · Jan 17, 2022

Lachlan Young said:
Have you tried the Moersch chemicals?

I have not...was thinking of this very thing, too. Maybe I'll give it a shot

MattKing · Jan 17, 2022

Fixed it for you

Roy Keane · Jan 17, 2022

MattKing said:
Fixed it for you

heh

gijsbert · Jan 17, 2022

I received some Fomatone 131 today, sure hope it liths! Hopefully next weekend I'll have some time to try it.
I have used Fomatone 132 and 133 with Moersch SE5 and have had good results.

I think this was 133, not totally sure. 133 is usually a bit more orangey than 132.

Roy Keane · Jan 18, 2022

gijsbert said:
I received some Fomatone 131 today, sure hope it liths! Hopefully next weekend I'll have some time to try it.
I have used Fomatone 132 and 133 with Moersch SE5 and have had good results.

I think this was 133, not totally sure. 133 is usually a bit more orangey than 132.View attachment 295896

That's beautiful

gijsbert · Jan 18, 2022

Forgot to mention, I've only used Moersch so I don't know how it compares to Arista or any other lith dev.
This was 16A+26B add water for 1000ml, keep 250ml for regeneration (ie throw in some fresh dev when it's about to exhaust) then add 70OB, probably started at 30C then stabilizes around 23C.
Usually I do 20A+25B but the A bottle was empty. Less A will give slightly less colourful results.
A few times I've seen start of snowballs when the developer got towards exhaustion hence the adding of some fresh dev towards the end. Of course the lith effect is the strongest when it's about to exhaust so it's yet another variable to play with
I have tried higher dilutions a few times, also more chance of snowballs I think, I don't quite recall the results. I might have used too little total volume so it stopped working after just a few prints.

I hope you get it to work, when it does it sure is fun! But it can be frustrating with all the variables. I've had my share of snowballs trying to use recent Fomabrom 112 so I gave up on that paper for lith, still a nice paper for neutral/cold tone images.

radiant · Jan 18, 2022

New 131 + Moersch EasyLith works on me. Actually I don't know any other modern paper that liths (except the slavich or something, but they have crazy taxes+shipping which are sent you after the order, pretty strange company)

Roy Keane · Jan 18, 2022

gijsbert said:
Forgot to mention, I've only used Moersch so I don't know how it compares to Arista or any other lith dev.
This was 16A+26B add water for 1000ml, keep 250ml for regeneration (ie throw in some fresh dev when it's about to exhaust) then add 70OB, probably started at 30C then stabilizes around 23C.
Usually I do 20A+25B but the A bottle was empty. Less A will give slightly less colourful results.
A few times I've seen start of snowballs when the developer got towards exhaustion hence the adding of some fresh dev towards the end. Of course the lith effect is the strongest when it's about to exhaust so it's yet another variable to play with
I have tried higher dilutions a few times, also more chance of snowballs I think, I don't quite recall the results. I might have used too little total volume so it stopped working after just a few prints.

I hope you get it to work, when it does it sure is fun! But it can be frustrating with all the variables. I've had my share of snowballs trying to use recent Fomabrom 112 so I gave up on that paper for lith, still a nice paper for neutral/cold tone images.

It never occurred to me that changing the developer could overcome some of the paper issues, so I'm going to give the Moersch a shot!

Roy Keane · Jan 18, 2022

vedostuu said:
New 131 + Moersch EasyLith works on me. Actually I don't know any other modern paper that liths (except the slavich or something, but they have crazy taxes+shipping which are sent you after the order, pretty strange company)

I got some of the Slavich from an eBay seller in Kazakhstan (good timing!) and i couldn't believe how thin the paper is (may have just been the type I got....it's like toilet paper). It did work, though....but it's very fragile

radiant · Jan 18, 2022

Roy Keane said:
I got some of the Slavich from an eBay seller in Kazakhstan (good timing!) and i couldn't believe how thin the paper is (may have just been the type I got....it's like toilet paper). It did work, though....but it's very fragile

Ah, thanks for letting me know. Maybe it is good that I didn't order it then.

Dwayne Martin · Jan 22, 2022

I get snowballs with Foma 131 and 133 from time to time (but not always) which makes it harder to figure out why. I get them mostly in the blacks. I tried the peroxide soak a time or two with no real change, but I probably didn't try enough times to be sure if it helped or not. I have used Arista, Moersch, and Kodalith Super RT and it can happen with any of the three. You can't buy Kodalith anymore I just happen to have a bunch. When I was using Arista it was most due the covid supply chain issues so I couldn't get Moersch. As far as I know Moersch is the only one that doesn't contain formaldehyde and it's a great developer.

I struggled with small white dots on my Fomatone prints for a long time. I never figured out why for sure but I now wash the dev tray and tongs before I lith and that seems to almost completely eliminate them. I suspect my tray was getting contaminated in the sink by other chemicals like fixer.

Another paper you can try is Foma Retrobrom. I have only developed 5 or 6 sheets so far so I don't have it dialed in yet but it does have a really pretty brown tone to it. I have learned that it's extremely sensitive to how it's agitated. I normally start Foma 133 face down in the try for 10-15 seconds and flip face down later briefly from time to time during the development to try to keep good even development. Retrobrom will clearly show tray marks from that when Fomatone never does. I can't dry it face down on a screen either because it leaves marks.

Dwayne

Dwayne Martin · Jan 22, 2022

Roy Keane said:
I got some of the Slavich from an eBay seller in Kazakhstan (good timing!) and i couldn't believe how thin the paper is (may have just been the type I got....it's like toilet paper). It did work, though....but it's very fragile

I bought Slavich from the same guy. I too was surprised how thin it was. Other Russian papers I have tried are thin also. In the end it still looks good thick or thin. For me Slavich developed grainy black and white with zero color. Was that your experience?
For whatever reason that guy sent me a pack of 5x7 Russian paper with the Slavich, not sure if that was an accident of not. I can't read a thing on the package but he calls it "Brom Portrait" on eBay. Turns out it liths beautifully. It comes up kind of slow but it has no problems with snowballs or any other problems for that matter. Very forgiving and easy to pick a snatch point.

D

jimjm · Jan 23, 2022

Can't say I've had any issues at all with snowballs, but I've only used Foma 131 with Photospeed LD20 developer. I don't believe LD20 is available anymore (crap!), so I'll probably try Moersch EasyLith next.
131 has a fairly warm tone, but Kodak Selenium toner cools it down quite a bit.

tezzasmall · Jan 31, 2022

Roy Keane said:
Anyone try to the Modern Lith method?

Are you referring to the Photrio member @ grainyvision? If so I have been following from the start.

Currently I'm working my way through various home mixed formaldehyde free formulas on the net, to varying success, but none last long enough in the darkroom.

I've just tried Moersch's and am in two minds about it. I'm not sure if the end result is what I want or not?

Terry S

Lith printing with FOMA 131?

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