Lith Printing Question

artonpaper · Aug 25, 2012

One of my former students, now back in France after studying in Brooklyn, NY, has contacted me asking about lith printing. In particular he has seen lith printing results that yield prints with a grainy look. He is more interested in that effect than in the warm tones lith printing yields. I know very little about lith printing so I'm hoping someone can steer me to an article/website that explains what materials and techniques generate these results.

Thanks,
Doug Schwab

eddie · Aug 25, 2012

Have him buy Tim Rudman's books.

Travis Nunn · Aug 25, 2012

There are dozens of threads on lith printing here on APUG, a quick search should yield plenty.

As Eddie said, Tim Rudman's books are the best source. There is little, if any, debate about that.

K-G · Aug 25, 2012

I don't know if this answers the question, but Wolfgang Moersch has quite a lot of information available on his web-site. I enclose a link.

Karl-Gustaf

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/knowhow/lang:en

MDR · Aug 25, 2012

Shorter exposure = higher contrast = more grain and less colorful results. I recently had some very grainy results with Fomabrom Variant.
Online ressources: http://www.lithprint.com/
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Lith/lith.html

Dominik

Jerevan · Aug 25, 2012

Yep, Fomabrom variant III 111/112 (glossy/matt) for example is good for grain and less colour.

aleksmiesak · Aug 25, 2012

I've had some fun grainy results using non-lith paper for kicks. Or more specifically Ilford WT paper that stated on the box "does not suit lith printing well". Can't remember the exact name of the paper right now and my notes are about 500 miles away so I'll have to get back to you. The paper took quite a while to develop but once the silver crystals caught on the contagious spread was pretty rapid. A fun experiment and probably will suit certain images better then others and maybe will be helpful in what your student is after.

Have fun!

Aleks

MDR · Aug 25, 2012

Here's a link to Tim Rudman's list of Lith Papers from 2008 http://www.alternativephotography.com/pdf/lith_materials_update5_2Sep_2008.pdf

Kentmere Fineprint VC is known to be grainy in Lith. Fomabrom seems to be the grain leader though.

Dominik

matti · Aug 26, 2012

I have used Forte Bromofort for this. Especially the matte paper is wonderful. I think all bromide papers liths grainy.
/matti

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 26, 2012

matti said:
I think all bromide papers liths grainy.

That's correct. The ones that actually DO lith, that is. As mentioned earlier, the Foma 111/112 papers are amazing for this effect. Big prints on this paper look fantastic with loads of grain.

darkosaric · Aug 26, 2012

Moersch Easy Lith set + Foma 111:

Dead Link Removed

regards,

nicholai · Aug 26, 2012

I have some WAY expired fomabrom that i'm (after this reading) impatiently waiting to lith!

Bob Carnie · Aug 26, 2012

Anton Corjbin book Startrax is probably what your friend is looking for . very grainy / stippled with warm brown creamy highlights.
This book came out early 90's and is responsible for thousand of Album and CD covers worldwide .

Printed by Mike Spry late 80's early 90's. Probably one of the best printers in UK.
None of the fruity tuity wishy washy colours that long development can get you. 20 min development nonsense.

Trix rated 1200 ISo - HC110 Dilution B 9 - 10 min develop.*** I would double check on the B it could be E***

Oriental G4 if you can get the original emulsion,,, Nova Lith A B dilution 1:8 with warm brown additional.
Secondary Sterling Lith if you could get the original emulsion.

Flash print off the main enlarger to get the cream , pull the print for the contrast.

This is IMHO the only true lith print look, the rest are all wannabees.

Bob Carnie · Aug 26, 2012

It actually says that?? does not suit lith printing well.

It is my go too paper for lith printing these days , Ilford warmtone gives grainy prints and are green when done right. With toner any colour is possible.

QUOTE=aleksmiesak;1384812]I've had some fun grainy results using non-lith paper for kicks. Or more specifically Ilford WT paper that stated on the box "does not suit lith printing well". Can't remember the exact name of the paper right now and my notes are about 500 miles away so I'll have to get back to you. The paper took quite a while to develop but once the silver crystals caught on the contagious spread was pretty rapid. A fun experiment and probably will suit certain images better then others and maybe will be helpful in what your student is after.

Have fun!

Aleks[/QUOTE]

artonpaper · Aug 26, 2012

Thank you everyone.Before this post I searched for lith threads but I must have done something wrong. I will begin checking your links and compiling the information. I'm beginning to want to try it myself.

aleksmiesak · Aug 26, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
It actually says that?? does not suit lith printing well.

[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I'm not sure what paper that was. I'm pretty sure it was Ilford just can't remember which one. I'll double check when I get back to my notes. And I remember the box actually had a note about it not being suitable for lith printing which I found funny and obviously a stubborn girl's challenge

Bob Carnie · Aug 26, 2012

I am pretty sure it hasn't that warning as it is a go to paper for a few of us here. It has a completely different snatch point than any other paper, and the lith effect explodes
in the fix, therefore making you to pull the print when it looks like crap, but it really is a beautiful paper for lith.

I am talking about Ilford Warmtone fibre paper .

Like I said, I'm not sure what paper that was. I'm pretty sure it was Ilford just can't remember which one. I'll double check when I get back to my notes. And I remember the box actually had a note about it not being suitable for lith printing which I found funny and obviously a stubborn girl's challenge [/QUOTE]

aleksmiesak · Aug 26, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
I am pretty sure it hasn't that warning as it is a go to paper for a few of us here. It has a completely different snatch point than any other paper, and the lith effect explodes
in the fix, therefore making you to pull the print when it looks like crap, but it really is a beautiful paper for lith.

I am talking about Ilford Warmtone fibre paper .

Like I said, I'm not sure what paper that was. I'm pretty sure it was Ilford just can't remember which one. I'll double check when I get back to my notes. And I remember the box actually had a note about it not being suitable for lith printing which I found funny and obviously a stubborn girl's challenge

[/QUOTE]

Ok, let's beat that horse some more.... I will double check what paper it was when I get home.

eddie · Aug 26, 2012

I think the response was inappropriate, too. All she said was she thought there was a sticker on her WT package, and offered to check when she got home. I'm curious as to what paper it was, as I've never seen it on my Ilford WT, either.

Bob Carnie · Aug 26, 2012

I momentarily lost my head. I didn't know I was beating a dead horse.

Dinesh said:
Bob, are you trying to take my place as APUG's resident misanthrope?

You had better tone it down as there is only room for one of us here!

rst · Aug 26, 2012

Here is a link to an Ilford page: Lith Printing So according to Ilford MG Warmtone FB is the Ilford paper which is best suited for Lith printing. And I like the results you can get with it. As Bob said, for the snatch point you have to keep in mind, that it kind of explodes in the fixing bath. I have never seen this with other papers.

Cheers
Ruediger

matti · Aug 26, 2012

So when do you snatch it? Any special fix better here?

Bob Carnie said:
... It has a completely different snatch point than any other paper, and the lith effect explodes
in the fix, therefore making you to pull the print when it looks like crap, but it really is a beautiful paper for lith.

I am talking about Ilford Warmtone fibre paper .

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 26, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
I am pretty sure it hasn't that warning as it is a go to paper for a few of us here. It has a completely different snatch point than any other paper, and the lith effect explodes
in the fix, therefore making you to pull the print when it looks like crap, but it really is a beautiful paper for lith.

I was doing a print on Ilford Warmtone the other day and forgot how the blacks just seem to appear in the fixer, as if out of nowhere. It took me a few attempts to get back into it, but I really love this paper for lith printing and if selenium toned afterward it gets an exceptionally beautiful color for portraits and skin tones.
Fun paper to lith with, for sure. I have quite a lot of Kodak Ektalure and Medalist that I use for lith printing, but have come to almost detest that pinkish salmon color they produce (for my own work), and they are way too smooth, dammit!
What else is nice about the Ilford paper is that it yields a very nice grain. Don't you think? Great texture, and works wonderfully in 16x20 size.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 26, 2012

matti said:
So when do you snatch it? Any special fix better here?

Snatch it before the blacks look finished. Actually, way before. Without practice it's really tough to judge it.

Bob Carnie · Aug 27, 2012

Takes a little practice but here goes.

I want the image to look very flat but open, if that makes sense, what will normally happen if you do not snatch the print, the image will just go dark and muddy and be of no value to keep.

What I look for is the solid black areas of the image to start showing themselves against the muddy midtones, this is when I pull the print.
I use hypam or rapid fix with no hardner, the explosion of contrast is quite extensive so finding the snatch point is practice.
If you pull it too soon the image will be too light and very flat, and if you wait too long to snatch the print will be too dark and contrasty.
Once you have made a couple of good ones its a easy to gage the proper time.

These prints do have a very distintive .... aged look to them and I have not found a subject matter that does not work well.
I find I do not have to flash to control contrast as I would with other papers.

matti said:
So when do you snatch it? Any special fix better here?

Lith Printing Question

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