Lith printing - Controlling image tones

HMFriedman · Sep 30, 2009

I have been experimenting with lith printing, and need to replenish my supplies. I've gotten Dr. Rudman's golden rules - expose for the highlights, develop for the shadows - but can use some help with currently available materials that will work to give me the image tones I seek.

Presently, I am printing on Kentona, Bergger Variable CM, or Forte Polywarmtone developed in Maco Superlith 1+1+24. I much prefer the cooler image tones of the Ketona versus the flamboyant orange I'm getting on the Bergger and Forte.

What paper should I be looking at to replace the Ketona, which I understand to be out (or on the way out) of production? Will the type and dilution of developer make a drastic difference? Any other suggestions?

Thanks so much.
Henry

Stan160 · Sep 30, 2009

I've only ever lith printed with Fomatone, and not a great deal of experience with that, but I've noticed using Fotospeed Lith dev that higher dilutions produce much more colourful prints.

Maybe if you tried adding more developer concentrate to your working solution it would restrain the orange. Except significantly faster dev times.

Ian

RPippin · Sep 30, 2009

Fomatone FB 132 (matt) is just about the only paper I use anymore. I've been able to get very light, salmon tones by using a very diluted developer, to very intense hot yellows and earth tones with two bath with Omega for the second bath. Moeresh SE5 is the developer I've settled on after trying most others, it does take a bit of experimenting to come up with something that works best for the negative I'm working with at the time. Check out Wolfgangs site for the "how to" guide to get the best results. As a rule, my exposures range between 30 and 45 seconds on the enlarger and 10 to 25 minutes in the developer. I've also found other post on APUG that give good formulas for Fotospeed to achieve the colors you seek. Good luck.

Rich Ullsmith · Oct 1, 2009

Another thing to try is flashing the paper prior to exposure, or in the pan while it's developing. Or, bleaching and redeveloping in a weaker developer . . .or even bleaching and exposing to bright sunlight or bulb flash prior to redeveloping. Needless to say, results are unpredictable and not easily duplicated.

As far as other materials are concerned, I think Tim Rudman has a fairly recent update on lithable papers. Also, depending on where you are at, keep an eye out for any discontinued papers laying around.

Mark Fisher · Oct 1, 2009

Two thoughts. Slavich Unibrom is quite neutral, but very different than Kentona. Slavich is very grainy. It looks very nice with the right image. The other thought is Fomatone in selenium. You can change the tone drastically with selenium with Fomatone.

HMFriedman · Oct 1, 2009

Thanks all. It sounds like Fomatone might be the next up for experimentation; I'll try some shorter dilutions to see if I can tame the oranges a bit. And maybe try some of the new Adox remake of Agfa. I read that it is supposed to Lith well also.

Mark Fisher · Oct 1, 2009

BTW - Fomatone is extremely orangey-yellow. I haven't tried it with fresh, low dilution developer, but definitely try it in dilute selenium

AshenLight · Oct 1, 2009

Has anyone here tried Oriental? According to Tim Rudman it works well but I wonder what tones you get with either FotoSpeed lith developer or Moersch developer.

Ash

Stan160 · Oct 1, 2009

This evening I tried a very orangey-brown Fomatone lith print in Moersch Carbon toner 1+30. After a few minutes the colour had cooler to a much more restrained cream and the dark tones were cold black rather than dark brown. Not what I was aiming for - it was an experiment - but maybe helpful for the OP.

Ian

MVNelson · Oct 1, 2009

If you are looking for tamed non-orangey tones It seems that Wolfgang's experiments with Adox MCC is worth your attention. From what I read Oriental had a winner paper for lith until the last emulsion change which apparently negatively impacted that ....

Philippe Grunchec · Oct 1, 2009

Check Wolfgang's site and see the different combos! But beware, Wolfgang is really a magician!

laparn · Oct 6, 2009

Please note, Fomatone is VERY warm with distinct orange and close to red tones straight out from dveloper.

BUT, don´t hesitate! It is a fantastic paper with great characteristics. The magic starts in the Selenium toner so don´t be disappointed upon a very warm image fom your Moersch SE5 Lith developer.
Mix Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1:9-1:14 somewhere and let it stay in there for 15 minutes. Yes, fifteen minutes...or even longer! You will discover a journey with drastic color shift and lith grain changes. Try a "bad" print first and learn what happens. Then put your favourite print in and snatch upon the pre-decided time. I can almost promise there will be a good print out from the poor one as well. Selenium is really the shit.

Second. I won´t say "forget the Golden rules" but I´d suggest to try else. The rules are indications but there are SOOO many interpretations you can achieve when llith printing. I.e overexpose a lot for a low contrast print and snatch the picture early and you will get a totally different picture than if following the Golden rule.
Try the opposite for a very heavy picture and then try the Selenium toner which will transform such a picture into something else.

Third. Weak/slow bleaching will cool down.

Last. Warm developer will open opportunities and flexibilities. Warm=quick development=possibility to high dilution=warmer tones etc etc.

Good luck!

AFlood · Oct 6, 2009

laparn said:
try else. The rules are indications but there are SOOO many interpretations you can achieve when llith printing. I.e overexpose a lot for a low contrast print and snatch the picture early and you will get a totally different picture than if following the Golden rule.
Try the opposite for a very heavy picture and then try the Selenium toner which will transform such a picture into something else.

Third. Weak/slow bleaching will cool down.

But here the golden rule still applies!
longer exposure = darker highlights, and
earlier snatch point = lighter shadows. therefore a combination of the two gives lower contrast. Dont forget the rules, just play around with them.

I'm using Foma Nature 532 at the moment. It cools down beautifully in gold toner, and has a slightly whiter base then 132. I prefer the surface sheen and smoothness of 132 though.

laparn · Oct 7, 2009

AFlood said:
But here the golden rule still applies!
longer exposure = darker highlights, and
earlier snatch point = lighter shadows. therefore a combination of the two gives lower contrast. Dont forget the rules, just play around with them.

I'm using Foma Nature 532 at the moment. It cools down beautifully in gold toner, and has a slightly whiter base then 132. I prefer the surface sheen and smoothness of 132 though.

Couldn´t say it better myself. Just what I mean. Stretch the rules and you will find a lot more interpretations than if applying the rules by its definition.

I haven´t tried Gold toner yet. Expensive stuff...but I am convienced it will give similar results as Selenium. In a different way.

Lith printing - Controlling image tones

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency