Lith printing and enlarger filtration

Having just started making lith prints, primarily on Foma 532 II Nature (Fotospeed LD20 developer) I have a question about setting filtration on my dichroic heads. Initially I started with grade 2, grade 3 etc. filtration but then switched to white light; the number of variables involved in lith printing causes me to question whether the enlarger head filtration has any effect on the print. Perhaps I should try some heavy magenta filtration and find out...

Tom.

Tom,

I can't back this up, because I've only ever used white light. But exposure, negative contrast, developer dilution, and preflash controls print contrast in lith printing. And since you overexpose your print, by a lot, the filtration sometimes causes you to get into reciprocity issues with the paper as it slows you down a couple of stops.

But you could always try it. Make a print that looks good with a Grade 2 filter in regular chemistry. Then try 2x and 3x and 4x that time with the enlarger set up the same way with lith chemistry and using the same filtration. That's one way of doing it.

The other way of doing it is to use white light and make your way on the fly. I like this approach better, but that's just my opinion.

Looking at it from standpoint of creating negatives that are good for lith printing, esteemed printers like Bob Carnie advocates HC-110 dil B, which means high contrast negatives most of the time. That's the cool thing about lith - with high contrast negs you have to expose your print longer to bring down contrast, but it also increases the color of the print. I blast the prints for a couple of minutes wide open in the enlarger, and I pre-flash the paper if necessary to control the contrast. Fomatone papers work great this way!

I have also had good luck with low contrast, thin negatives, short exposures and longer development times. Fotokemika Varycon works wonderfully this way.

The lith chemistry I use is strong, abut equivalent to about 1+1+20 with your Fotospeed, and high temp at about 76-85*F chemistry. You can use two-bath if you want too, with one weak and one strong. There are endless possibilities this way in controlling shadow density and color too.

Hopefully that helps!

- Thomas

Thomas,

Interesting points about getting into reciprocity issues with filtration. I've been using 128 seconds, f/8 with a Meopta Magnifax 4a (Color 3 head) which uses a 100W halogen lamp. 645 negatives onto 9.5" x 12" paper.

Tom

Hi Tom,

128s = roughly 2min, which is what I use (about 40s to 2min) with a 150W bulb at f/4, from 645/6x6/35mm/4x5 and no filtration. Goes to prove how different our negs and methods must be. I print smaller than you do.

I think the filtration issue is one discussed many times. If it works for you - keep doing it! I use both graded and VC papers when lith printing, so I prefer some consistency and the simpler the better.

Good luck with it.

- Thomas

You have so much control over contrast with exposure time that I think filtration is unnecessary, but I have not done any scientific testing of this. I agree with Thomas that it is probably better to steer away from reciprocity issues if at all possible. I use a darkroom analyser to estimate the contrast of the negative and have a list of 'multiplication factors' for each paper I use to work out starting exposure times without filters.

Hi Tom
I never use any filters for lith printing, I want as much light as possible, in fact I use 250w bulbs rather than the standard 150w.
As Thomas points out *thanks for the esteemed plug* contrast is controlled many ways.
Pure lith papers like fotospeed I have found need a pre flash on certain negatives.
therefore my first step is to look at the negative, is it pyro or hc110, what is the lighting ratio of the scene and once I have determined what kind of negative I am working with, I will do a full image/magnification test.
I have a pre determined flash point that is just starting to fog the edges of the paper post chemicals and as well I pump in the enlarger exposure.
Critical is when you pull for black detail and do not let the image in dev fool you by looking way to flat before the pull , sometimes the emergence is fast and you need to have a strong stop *most critical* to insure no streaking and over development.
Some papers like Ilford Warmtone*one of my favorites* require you to pull the print just as the hint of blacks set, stop and then watch the magic happen in the fix.

After this initial full test print, you decide on your contrast situation, if the prints are flat as piss on a plate then I would drop my enlarger time and as well the flash time.
If the print has a basic good look then you may want to try to drop the flash and see that difference.

more flash, more enlarger exposure will create lower contrast
no flash, less enlarger exposure will create more contrast.

flashing and lots of exposure will set your highlight points
pulling the print at the right moment will set the blacks.
As Thomas points out temp, dilution and papers will also give a difference.

Mr Rudman has a whole world of tips for lith printing and I have seen his prints here in Toronto at the APUG conference and they are very beautiful. His methods can take the prints into colours and vibrance that I never will achieve.

I use a very strong dilution and will not go beyond 3-4 minutes in dev . I go for the gritty strong black lith look that Mike Spry set up for Anton Corjbin.

One tip rather than flashing is to use a very textured paper over the print and do a heavy second exposure over the whole print but hold back areas that you want to keep sharp by dodging the whole time.
This method is quite keen and I do this a lot rather than flash to control contrast.

have fun

Tom Kershaw said:

Having just started making lith prints, primarily on Foma 532 II Nature (Fotospeed LD20 developer) I have a question about setting filtration on my dichroic heads. Initially I started with grade 2, grade 3 etc. filtration but then switched to white light; the number of variables involved in lith printing causes me to question whether the enlarger head filtration has any effect on the print. Perhaps I should try some heavy magenta filtration and find out...

Tom.

Click to expand...

Hi Tom
I never use any filters for lith printing, I want as much light as possible, in fact I use 250w bulbs rather than the standard 150w.

Click to expand...

250W in the enlarger, are you using a 4x5 enlarger? My other enlarger is a DeVere 5108 with a 1200W Dichroic head.

As Thomas points out *thanks for the esteemed plug* contrast is controlled many ways.
Pure lith papers like fotospeed I have found need a pre flash on certain negatives.

Click to expand...

I've used Foma 532, Adox MCC (one sheet from sample pack of five), and ILFORD Warmtone so far. The Foma paper has produced the most stereotypically lith type prints "out of the box", the ILFORD Warmtone resulting in a more subtle effect. Kentmere Kentona, and the Fotospeed paper are next on the list.

therefore my first step is to look at the negative, is it pyro or hc110, what is the lighting ratio of the scene and once I have determined what kind of negative I am working with, I will do a full image/magnification test.

Click to expand...

The negatives I've been printing for these initial prints were developed in Tetenal Ultrafin processed in a Jobo ATL-2300. My older negatives were developed in Ilfotec HC (usage as HC-110) and processed in Paterson Super System 4 tanks with standard hand agitation. Within the next couple of months I plan to mix up some Pyrocat-HD and experiment with that.

I have a pre determined flash point that is just starting to fog the edges of the paper post chemicals and as well I pump in the enlarger exposure.
Critical is when you pull for black detail and do not let the image in dev fool you by looking way to flat before the pull , sometimes the emergence is fast and you need to have a strong stop *most critical* to insure no streaking and over development.

Click to expand...

This comment seems to hold true from my first few lith prints; the image visible with the paper in the developer looks rather different to the result emerging from the fix.

Some papers like Ilford Warmtone*one of my favorites* require you to pull the print just as the hint of blacks set, stop and then watch the magic happen in the fix.

Click to expand...

Are you using the ILFORD Warmtone in straight lith developer without toning or bleaching? Tim Rudman seems to comment in 'The Master Photographer's Lith Printing Course' that ILFORD WT is more interesting when bleached and re-developed / split-toned etc.

After this initial full test print, you decide on your contrast situation, if the prints are flat as piss on a plate then I would drop my enlarger time and as well the flash time.
If the print has a basic good look then you may want to try to drop the flash and see that difference.

Click to expand...

more flash, more enlarger exposure will create lower contrast
no flash, less enlarger exposure will create more contrast.

Click to expand...

flashing and lots of exposure will set your highlight points
pulling the print at the right moment will set the blacks.
As Thomas points out temp, dilution and papers will also give a difference.

Click to expand...

Mr Rudman has a whole world of tips for lith printing and I have seen his prints here in Toronto at the APUG conference and they are very beautiful. His methods can take the prints into colours and vibrance that I never will achieve.

Click to expand...

I use a very strong dilution and will not go beyond 3-4 minutes in dev . I go for the gritty strong black lith look that Mike Spry set up for Anton Corjbin.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I have been using dilutions along the lines of 20ml A + 20ml B + 1000ml water + 500ml old brown, so very dilute developers; and keeping the tray solution at a raised 30+ºC temperature; resulting in 10 to 20 + minute development times.

One tip rather than flashing is to use a very textured paper over the print and do a heavy second exposure over the whole print but hold back areas that you want to keep sharp by dodging the whole time.
This method is quite keen and I do this a lot rather than flash to control contrast.

have fun

Click to expand...

Thanks

Tom.

Tom, I've used some filtration in my enlarger for VC papers in lith as I always use a combination of yellow and magenta for VC in regular chemistry as well so my exposures are consistent across grades. For lith, it does seem to to work quite well for me. Usually in the G3 and G4 range which is where most good lithable graded papers seem to work quite well. As has been said, contrast is usually controlled by exposure. Tweaking the VC paper grade to where it's sweet spot is can be done for lith, and my results are not based upon any scientific research to test properly for it, but I have seen a difference.. I have a 250w bulb in my beseler and follow an approach similar to Thomas, but I get much lower exposure times with my set up.

That's the wonderful thing about the lith process is that no two artists follows the same workflow.

I've got no choice whether or not to use filtration with my enlarger because it uses the Heiland Splitgrade head. I've found that if I'm using lower grades like 0 to get the most exposure out of the lamp then the blacks don't seem to energize at all and the prints just fail. When working with higher grades for proportionately the same time, taking into account the filtration there are no problems at all. So yeah filtration definately makes a difference.

I've written elsewhere on APUG about my experiences with Ilford WT in lith.

I've achieved some extremely wonderful prints, but many times I get translucent spots on the paper that don't go away after processing and drying. The spots look like a "greasy sandwich leaking through a paper lunch bag" ;-)

But the ones that work are incredible...

Hi Tom

I use 4x5 condenser, Second enlarger for flash.
I do also quad tone Ilford WT and its real nice,my dilutions are 1000ml A, 1000ml B, 1000 ml old, 8000 ml water, plus I age the dev before printing with lots of exposed to white light paper, gets me in the ball park quick.
Never more than 4 min pull time.

Bob

Tom be careful with Bob. He swims in his Lith pool. With that much fumes delirium happens quickly !


To keep with the OP I never use filtration on VC paper and always use grade 4 on graded paper.
G.

I have just made four lith prints on Foma 532; bringing up another consideration of emulsion softness (i.e. specks of emulsion lifted off the paper base); I'll have to filter out any debris in the developer and avoid using print tongs. The four prints went through a 20 ml A + 20 ml B + 500 ml old brown + 1000 ml water tray solution with a slight shift from brown to yellow on initial wet impressions.

Tom.

Never use filter too.

Jarvman said:

I've got no choice whether or not to use filtration with my enlarger because it uses the Heiland Splitgrade head. I've found that if I'm using lower grades like 0 to get the most exposure out of the lamp then the blacks don't seem to energize at all and the prints just fail. When working with higher grades for proportionately the same time, taking into account the filtration there are no problems at all. So yeah filtration definately makes a difference.

Click to expand...

Hi!
Use the Heiland Splitgrade mode for graded papers, and you will get unfiltered white light which will reduce your exposure times a lot.

Best regards!

Johannes

chronos said:

Hi!
Use the Heiland Splitgrade mode for graded papers, and you will get unfiltered white light which will reduce your exposure times a lot.

Best regards!

Johannes

Click to expand...

Ahh! Cheers sir, very useful first post there thanks! Will try it.