Lith printing & agitation

My first day of lith printing was interesting. I discovered that I need to continually and vigorously agitate (by stirring and poking with my rubber-tipped bamboo tongs as randomly and completely as possible) to avoid uneven development. By uneven I don't mean streaks or swirls or blotches, I mean large dark zones and light zones (e.g. black edges and underdeveloped center) which seemed to correlate to how I was agitating.

This was with small (6x7.5") prints and with snatch time coming up after about 2 to 5 minutes. I'm not sure how I'd handle it with larger prints or longer development times.

Is there a better way? I didn't test to see if the issue was just that I needed to poke the print down (it may have been partially on the surface in the cases where it developed unevenly) or if the improvement really was because of the more vigorous agitation.

How much chemistry, how large trays, and what size paper?

I can't say I've had your problems, but like you I agitate continuously and when i use 8x10 paper I use 12x16 trays with 3 liters of developer solution. That amount of solution helps with two things:
1) Consistency from print to print improves
2) It is easier to submerge the print fully

- Thomas

You do need to agitate constantly but I do this just by sliding the developer tray back and forth constantly. You really should use a tray one size bigger than the print to avoid edge re-enforcement and don't skimp on the quantity of developer - I've had problems a bit like you're describing when using a litre of developer in an 8x10 tray. Going to 1.5 litres fixed that. I used about 2.5 litres in a 10x12 tray.

You may also have problems with some papers not wanting to submerge fully for the first minute. I use my stainless steel tongs to poke them edges down into the developer for the first minute.

Hope this helps.

Barry

One other thing - you can get these kinds of light and dark effects if you're a bit sloppy with how you use the stop. Always use fresh stop and get the print into the stop fully and smoothly in one motion and then gently rock the stop bath making sure that clean stop is constantly washing over the print. Again, don't skimp on the quantity of stop - you don't need as much as you do developer but it's best to have more than you'd use for a normal print to avoid an uneven stop.

Everything said so far is good advice. I had similar problems when I strated a few months ago. Here are a few things I've learned:

I'd add that poking it with tongs is definitely a bad idea. If you don't have a problem with spots now, you will likely have a problem when/if you tone the prints. Just slide the prints under your 2-3 liters of developer and rock the tray and the developer will reach the paper within a few seconds.....if you are using enough developer in a larger enough tray.

Also, I found that vigorous agitation tended to build density at the edges so I like to rock the tray more gently, but continuously.

Lower dilutions are generally more controllable, but take longer and exhaust quicker.

When you notice the development taking way longer or there is a sudden change in your prints, change or replenish the developer.

Look the gallery for good lith prints. Thomas Bertilsson's prints are definintely worth looking at.

Last, get Tim Rudman's books if you don't aleady have them.


Oh, yeah.....and it is the most fun, creative and interesting printing I've ever done!

I never poke my lith prints, or any prints for that matter, with tongs. That's a recipe for dings in the paper which I HATE! The easiest method for me when lith printing is to use nitrile gloves. It's a lot easier to remove the print quickly from the developer and move into the stop bath.

Also, I've never had to stir or agitate vigorously while the print is in the developer. I just use a slow, consistent agitation.

Use lots of developer. I never use less than 1 gallon of mixed developer. By using more than you think necessary you'll be able to print more in a session and more of what you print will be reproducable.

The only better way is the way that works best for you.

Hello Walter,
I agree with all the points made ...
- DON'T poke
- large volumes
- gentle but constant agitation - vigorous agitation = turbulence around edges = quicker infectious development there.
- Larger tray size than print, if possible, for the same reason as above. definitely not a tight squeeze tray.

And, what paper, dev and volume are you using? Some cold tone papers are more prone to this
Tim

Hi Walter


I've had that happen on occasion. Its strange but for me seems to happen with no reason. The exact same thing happened to me the other night, I just made a new print and it worked fine. It's a finickey thing. You just have to experiment. I would take one negative and experiment with different papers, developers, exposure times, aperatures and pull times to get the look you like. I have noticed two consisitencies. The longer the exposure and or smaller aperature gives more contrast. Wide aperatures and shorter times give much leass contrast. But again as the developer gets weaker that changes things as well

Handling larger prints: yeah, gloves are the only way to go. Tongs are nearly useless.

Longer development times: you need a distraction. Music is great, but talk radio seems to kill the minutes faster.

A little trick I use which will work best if you have a good assistant in the room handling the stop fix, side as well as providing booze and lunch is as follows.

lots of chems as the above mention.
strong fresh stop. fix.
constant agitation in the first 20 seconds and then you can slow down a bit.
golves as suggested.

I always print two images at a time back to back with the emulsion out obviously. This forces me to treat the paper gently and never put my fingers on the emulsion or base. I always leave a white border to have an edge to grip.
When the image image is ready I pass the print to stop and keep working on the first until it is ready to go into the stop.

I have fooled Dinesh on many occasions to come to the Lab to print, He thinks he is learning things , but all I really want is him to provide lunch , beers and be the stop fixer guy.


I do this back to back Dev with all my prints up to 20x24 and it is very easy to do and produces kink free prints all the time.
Another trick is in addition to old brown to the starting mix.. I will make my Dev tray first and put in 10-15 sheets of paper flashed to white light.. This helps age the chems to that sweet zone much quicker..
Have lith workers found out that the very first print does not have that look???? I think it is because there is a zone that works best and a few prints into a session always use to look better to me.. now I just get there faster by burning up a bunch of sheets, as I am setting up the enlargers.

Bob Carnie said:

....

I have fooled Dinesh on many occasions to come to the Lab to print, He thinks he is learning things , but all I really want is him to provide lunch , beers and be the stop fixer guy....

Click to expand...

I hate to break it to you Bob, but that's not beer you are drinking!

Yes indeed, there is a zone where it's pure money . . .just a question of how to get there, and how long. I keep resolving to take a more scientific approach, keep notes and what not, but you know how that goes.