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Lith Papers...again

cbphoto

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35mm RF
Ok, I'm just about to finish my first 100-sheet box of Slavich that I got for lith printing a couple of weeks back, and need to get something locally (NYC) to get me through the week while I wait for FedEx. I've read that Ilford MG Warmtone is good if you use it hot (big pain without a warming tray), but are there any other BH/Adorama papers that would work? Oriental VC and/or graded? Bergger? Galerie? I know MGIV and Kentmere VC do not work well - tried some that I had on hand, and they are cool in their own bizarre way, but not for most shots. I'm using Arista chemistry. Thanks in advance. All of my searching turned up mostly dated info, or talked about papers not available to me immediately.
 
Many of the Fomatone papers respond very well in lith. Fomatone MG classic is my go to paper for lith printing. You many also want to give Fotokemika Emaks a try.
 
Since there are so many variables when lith printing, my advice to you would be do what I did....buy small packs of every paper you can and try it using your methods and your work flow. I tried every paper I could find and I eventually settled in on what I liked the best. I think you'll find that some people prefer different results with their lith prints. Some here love the way Ilford Warmtone liths. I hate it. That being said, I've seen a few really nice lith prints made with this paper. But when I tried it, I didn't like the results, which tells me one thing....the other person's workflow and methods are different.

Find what you like.
 

True, but some papers flat out don't work. I'd like to avoid the $30 fee per pack to find that out.
 
E76 said:
Many of the Fomatone papers respond very well in lith. Fomatone MG classic is my go to paper for lith printing. You many also want to give Fotokemika Emaks a try.
Click to expand...

Not available in NY
 
Fomabrom will also work if you are looking for something more grainy and graphic than Slavich.....it is probably the toughest paper to make "behave" though. If you have Kentmere Warmtone paper, it is excellent but discontinued. Ilford Warmtone is about the subtle-ist lithing paper I've used. Lots of people love it, but I've only had a print or two that I've liked trying it.
 
I'm one of the Ilford MGWT lovers here, and it's true what Travis Nunn says about trying for yourself in order to find value in the papers you choose.

With regular printing there is a hunch of a 'standard'. You develop the paper to completion, and all of the controls are at the exposure stage.

With lith printing you have a lot of control at the developing stage, if you choose to operate that way (some masterful lith printers work with standard developing times, believe it or not, with staggering results). What this does is that it alters the controls you have at the exposure stage. If you make a lith print from the same scene, one negative that is thin, and another that is normal but with high contrast, they will look completely different! That is why one man's ceiling is another man's floor with lith printing, and it's utterly difficult to give recommendations.

But, I like Ilford MGWT (semi-matte) because of its flexibility. I can make prints with high contrast and deep rich blacks and very crisp highlights. Or I can make very smooth and subtle prints with less contrast. This paper also tones beautifully after it's printed, without changing the highlight density too much, and that has helped me make some of my best lith prints on this particular paper.

Attached are some prints made with Ilford MGWT in Arista Lith. All are double toned in both sulfide and selenium toners to varying effect. The print of the trees (attached for illustration) were identical to begin, and the toned difference is that the copper colored one had twice the amount of time in the selenium bath. You can do anything you want with this paper, if you try hard enough.

- Thomas
 

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Thanks Thomas! Nice images - they look somewhat similar to some of my Slavich prints. I just got back from B&H with a 25-pack of MGWT, so we'll what happens after lunch...
 
cbphoto said:
True, but some papers flat out don't work. I'd like to avoid the $30 fee per pack to find that out.
Click to expand...

my philosophy is a little different, I guess. I'd rather spend a few dollars and find out what works for me. Take what others advise and keep it in mind, but with Lith, you really need burn some money and experiment.

If Thomas had listened to me and everyone else who doesn't like the way Ilford Warmtone liths he may never have tried it. He is one of the printers who always makes me second guess my thoughts on the paper, but then again when I try it with my negatives, I just don't like the results.

Regarding your statement that "...some papers flat out don't work..." I have yet to try a single paper that didn't work. I've found several that I didn't like, but I've yet to find one that didn't work at all. I'd be interested to know which ones don't.
 
Having a rough time with the MGWT - I'm getting dark splotches all over the print when the developer becomes seasoned. Anyone else experience this?
 
All special order, at least in 8x10 fiber.
 

I was barely able to get even a faint image on Kentmere (which Rudman indicates is a non-lithable paper) and the best I could do with MGIV was something resembling a faint pencil drawing on beige carpet! It actually worked for one image of mine, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a flexible lith paper. That's what I mean by "don't work" - yeah, they can all do something, but if it's that extremely demanding and inflexible, then they might not be a good substitute for something "easy" and versatile like Slavich.
 
I find that old paper works beautifully. (Portriga Rapid is my personal favorite.) Try scouring the town for old papers for cheap or free. I have a whole fridge full of them (more than I will use in any reasonable period of time ) and I think I have spent about $40 total. I always prefer my results with the expired stash (some going back to the late 1940s/early 1950s) to my results with new papers (Ilford MGWT, Emaks, etc.).
 
Tom Kershaw said:
ILFORD Multigrade warmtone fibre base works very well in Fotospeed LD20 lith developer. Try 20ml A + 20 ml B + 1000ml water as a starting point.

Tom
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Tried some with Arista dev today, and had the black splotch problem I mentioned earlier. Seems like it only likes fresh developer (boring). Something is wrong.
 
cbphoto said:
Tried some with Arista dev today, and had the black splotch problem I mentioned earlier. Seems like it only likes fresh developer (boring). Something is wrong.
Click to expand...

I was using reasonably fresh developer, however I fail to see why this is inherently 'boring'. MGWT is not going to produce the multi-hued palette of Fomabrom papers; however the ILFORD paper can give strong graphic results without some of the "special effects" that may not always be desired.

Tom
 

No, of course it doesn't have to be boring, but I got some really interesting stuff with dirtier developer on the Slavich...not sure how to go about it with the MGWT yet.
 
Picked up a pack of Adox MC110 today...we'll see what happens with that. But I'd still like to know why my MGWT is spotted like a leopard. It's not the "measles" that Tim Rudman talks about, because they didn't go away after drying.
 
cbphoto said:
Having a rough time with the MGWT - I'm getting dark splotches all over the print when the developer becomes seasoned. Anyone else experience this?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry it's not working out for you. I've never had the problem you say you are experiencing. Have you tried printing a sheet in regular chemistry, just to check that everything is fine?
Then you can bleach the picture back and re-develop it in highly dilute, 90*F lith developer. It's fun! Overexpose your print in the enlarger by about 1/2 stop. This way you don't re-develop the print all the way. If you do re-develop all the way, you'll end up with a print that looks much like the original. But if you stop it early, you'll get all sorts of weird colors. You can do this in daylight.

My preferred developer has been Arista Lith from powder with MGWT, mainly for the look. But other developers might work differently. I hear good things of the LD-20 from Fotospeed and MGWT.

Anyway, just a couple of suggestions to help you enjoy this paper. I hope you have better luck with other papers, and I'm sorry you spent money on a paper that didn't work upon my recommendation...

- Thomas
 
cbphoto said:
Picked up a pack of Adox MC110 today...we'll see what happens with that. But I'd still like to know why my MGWT is spotted like a leopard. It's not the "measles" that Tim Rudman talks about, because they didn't go away after drying.
Click to expand...

Can you scan a print and post it here so we can see?
 
You weren't the only one recommending it, and I'm still determined to make it work. I've seen many, many good examples of it (yours, especially, but Flickr is also a good research tool for this kind of stuff). It's possible (maybe, or not) that the gallon of old brown I got from the countless trays used on Slavich paper might not agree with the MGWT. I'll try again later on with fresh developer and see how it progresses in solely its own juices. The paper itself is ok, as the fresh dev prints are spotless, and quite nice - not just the really lithy look I was going for, that you and others have accomplished.
 
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I tried to buy some old and fogged Slavich at K&M today, but they wouldn't sell it for less than the new price. I know it's fogged because I bought a fogged 10-pack about 8 months ago and it's the same stock. On the plus side, they carry new stock of MCC 110.
 
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