Lith development: Blotching???

Dali · Aug 13, 2016

Hi,

I am rather new to with printing and maybe I missed something...

I noticed that very ofter, sky area in my print was not uniform but showing some blotches. I post 3 examples below:

These 3 images were printed with different papers (Fomatone 131 and Oriental FB WT). Common parameters are:

1) Chemicals: Arista Premium Lith liquid (1 part A + 1 part B + 2 parts old brown + 40 parts water) / Acetic acid stop bath / Ilford Rapid fixer / 20 minutes wash / 5 minutes sodium sulfite bath / 40 minutes wash
2) The operator: Myself

Development time varies between 10 and 20 minutes.

Do you face a similar issue? How to prevent it? Is it coming from my modus operandi or is it inherent to the lith process?

Thanks!

Bob Carnie · Aug 13, 2016

Blotching in my darkroom only comes if I am not agitating the print enough and not getting into the acid stop fast enough.

I cannot speak for Arista as I have never been able to make it work to my liking.
Also my snatch time is around 3-4 minutes never more so maybe this could be it.

Dali · Aug 13, 2016

Blacks appear rather quickly (5 or 6 minutes) but the image is rather slow to build, hence the development times I gave earlier.

Do you suggest I should change of dilution ( = increase concentration) and shorten the development time (10 minutes max)?

Bob Carnie · Aug 13, 2016

Dali said:
Blacks appear rather quickly (5 or 6 minutes) but the image is rather slow to build, hence the development times I gave earlier.

Do you suggest I should change of dilution ( = increase concentration) and shorten the development time (10 minutes max)?

Not sure as I have never used this developer with good results.

I do use a pretty strong mixture of Moresh, or LD-20 when I make lith prints , as I do not like long dev times, as per Tim Rudman. But hard for me
to argue with his results. Sometimes he is standing over a dev tray for 20 minutes.

Ko.Fe. · Aug 13, 2016

I have same developer and different papers. No problems. These spots should be visible during developing. My developing times are 20 minutes at least.

Dali · Aug 13, 2016

Yes, these spots appear while development as soon as the sky starts to darken. If I shorten the development time, the sky is (almost) white without any visible mark but I am not pleased with the overall result...

Kostya, what dilution do you use?

Bob Carnie · Aug 13, 2016

Have you looked at these negatives to make sure the white spots are not on the film, do the spots randomly change or are the constant position.
If constant position its not your lith chemistry but something with the negatives, if its random then I would get the paper in the developer very fast and make sure all the emulsion is covered within seconds of inserting in the tray.

Dali · Aug 13, 2016

Negatives are pristine. If it were coming from film development, it is unlikely I would made the same mistake 30 years apart... The first picture is from a '80 negative. The second picture is from a 2011 negative and the third picture from a 2006 negative.

Bob Carnie · Aug 13, 2016

Dali said:
Negatives are pristine. If it were coming from film development, it is unlikely I would made the same mistake 30 years apart... The first picture is from a '80 negative. The second picture is from a 2011 negative and the third picture from a 2006 negative.

well that kind of settles that issue, other than uneven dev in first 30 seconds I cannot offer more, different papers so it should not be a manufacture issue.

Dali · Aug 13, 2016

Well, it does not take more than 2-3 seconds to entirely soak the paper. Then it is constant agitation for the whole development time. That is why it is so confusing...

mooseontheloose · Aug 14, 2016

Foma has had some reformulations that affected the papers. Here's a p(there was a url link here which no longer exists). Oriental seems to be rebadged Foma as well, so would exhibit the same issue. How old is your paper? Apparently new paper (this year) does not exhibit these issues, but papers produced in the 3-5 years previously may have these issues (sorry, I forget exactly when this first started). If you search on Facebook there are some discussions about this. It may be a one of or a combination of factors ranging from the paper to the developer to whether it's first/last papers through (the more papers go through the developer the worse the problem), maybe even the use of Old Brown. You'll have to do some experimenting to figure out the problem.

If you want to decrease your times but not change the look of your lith prints (which will happen if you change the dilution), then heat the developer. I rarely develop lith prints at anything less than 30 C (at least, in the beginning) to keep developing times short, usually between 3-7 minutes.

Dali · Aug 14, 2016

Both Foma and Oriental papers were bought less than 6 months ago from Freestyle. I might try with different papers. Still have some sheets of Adox and Kentmere somehere...

Bob Carnie · Aug 14, 2016

Stumps me - I would give LD-20 a go to see if you get the same problems

scheimfluger_77 · Aug 14, 2016

Your dilution seems awfully high, I had trouble getting anything useable at 1:20. Your old brown is only about 5% of the mix as well, IIRC T. Rudman suggested using up to 25% O.B. My last successful stint with the Arista was 1:12 with about 25% O.B. (Too much I think, the highlights seemed slightly stained). Based on my recent experience, I suggest doubling your O.B. And halving the dilution to around 1:15 or 1:20.

Mateo · Aug 14, 2016

I'm gonna guess that you are pushing the development too far for the dilution you are using. Do the blacks appear about half way through the development or right at the end? If the blacks come up and you leave the print too long, the infectious development is kinda on the knife's edge for the tones that develop and you get splotches.

Dali · Aug 14, 2016

Mateo said:
I'm gonna guess that you are pushing the development too far for the dilution you are using. Do the blacks appear about half way through the development or right at the end? If the blacks come up and you leave the print too long, the infectious development is kinda on the knife's edge for the tones that develop and you get splotches.

You might be right. When blacks appear, I have to leave the print for quite a long time to get something acceptable in terms of contrast.

Dali · Aug 14, 2016

scheimfluger_77 said:
Your dilution seems awfully high, I had trouble getting anything useable at 1:20. Your old brown is only about 5% of the mix as well, IIRC T. Rudman suggested using up to 25% O.B. My last successful stint with the Arista was 1:12 with about 25% O.B. (Too much I think, the highlights seemed slightly stained). Based on my recent experience, I suggest doubling your O.B. And halving the dilution to around 1:15 or 1:20.

Ok, I will follow your recommendations. Thanks for sharing your experience!

Patrick Robert James · Aug 14, 2016

I am not a lith aficionado, but you might want to make sure your developer is well mixed. Those kind of look like drag marks to me.

Ko.Fe. · Aug 15, 2016

Dali said:
Yes, these spots appear while development as soon as the sky starts to darken. If I shorten the development time, the sky is (almost) white without any visible mark but I am not pleased with the overall result...

Kostya, what dilution do you use?

I mix about 600-500 ml of water and 70-100 ml of A and B. And adding it to 1L of previously used developer. First print will be after 20 minutes, I print around five and last one is 40 minutes or so. I agitate often and a lot before I start to see the image. I'm also closing tray with developer by another tray. Results are different, if no protection from safe-light at 20+ minutes exposure.

This is with tray on top.

This one is without protection from safe-light.

Dali · Aug 15, 2016

Patrick Robert James said:
I am not a lith aficionado, but you might want to make sure your developer is well mixed. Those kind of look like drag marks to me.

I mix parts A, B, Old Brown and water is a specific container where the whole thing is shaken before being poured in the tray.

Bob Carnie · Aug 15, 2016

You can flash your paper to make the highlights come out faster.

scheimfluger_77 · Aug 16, 2016

Bob Carnie said:
You can flash your paper to make the highlights come out faster.

Bob this seems like a logical technique for Lith, I assume you mean pre-flash? Do you try to find a flash time for exposure just before gray appears or do you sort of wing it?

patafysik · Aug 16, 2016

I had the same issues when I started lith printing a couple of years ago, using Foma papers, only my prints looked much worse, particularly when I tried prints with more contrast and less colours. (I think someone posting in the previous thread on this topic called the condition "snowball measles", which I find spot on.) Developing times were typically 15 - 20 minutes at 20 degrees Celsius. I tried a lot of different developer dilutions and mixing proportions (I use Moersch) with limited effect. The cure turned out to be a warmer developer - I now heat it to 30 degrees Celsius, like a previous commenter, and the issue has disappeared completely. Developing times have dropped to 3 - 5 minutes, which seems to be the critical factor in my case.

Bob Carnie · Aug 16, 2016

scheimfluger_77 said:
Bob this seems like a logical technique for Lith, I assume you mean pre-flash? Do you try to find a flash time for exposure just before gray appears or do you sort of wing it?

You can flash before or after exposure I never found a difference..... You can do a test strip flash on raw paper then put it in enlarger and do you normal exposure with neg in place.

With one or two attemps you can see which flash is best... Each negative will require different flash , unless of course its from the same strip or same lighting exposure combination.

The more you flash the lower the contrast.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 16, 2016

Your total volume of developer can affect results.

I've gotten used to using a full gallon of mixed developer in a tray that is larger than the resulting print, so I use 16x20 trays for 11x14 prints, and 12x16 trays for 8x10 and smaller.
Also, I warm the developer on a restaurant buffet food heating plate, which helps me keep the chemicals at about 80 degrees F.
I don't agitate the trays. I use nitrile gloves and I move the chemicals around the tray with my hands.

I do not get blotches like you do, but our methods are likely not very similar.

Lith development: Blotching???

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