Lith Developer Questions

craicfein · Feb 22, 2008

Hi, I am going to be doing some lith prints and thought I would run a few things past the group to make sure I am not missing anything before I get started. The reason I am posting this is because I will be printing out of an extremely small darkroom, and I have not used lith developers for years, and when I did I used one gallon jugs of already mixed solution from work. I have large packets of Agfa lith developer (a+b powder) that make 20 litres of developer. I multiplied this by 3 to get 60 litres and then divided the weight of each bag by 60 to give me a 1 litre formula. I have two old tupperware containers that I will label and store the extra powder in.

I have gloves and wear glasses. I have brown 1 gallon jugs to store the liquid in. What I am wondering is if I am missing something? I would really appreciate any advice or insight I could get. I would also be grateful for any advice on exposing lith film using an enlarger. I am thinking longer exposure and stopped down, as I seem to recall the lights for the graphic arts cameras I used were quite bright.

Martin Reed · Feb 23, 2008

You haven't really stated what end result you're aiming for - is it continuous tone prints with the 'lith' warm colour & distorted tonality, or is it high contrast eliminating half tones? The dilution of the developer is quite different, and the choice of paper is fundamental.

Also if you're using a genuine lith film you'll need red, as opposed to orange safelighting. What film is it, there's not much lith film around these days?

craicfein · Feb 23, 2008

I will be doing continuous tone prints with the warm tones to start off with, now that you mention it, I have Fomabrom but its variant 112 which I think does not lith well. I have a list of good lith paper that I will check. I also have some negatives I would like to use lith film masks with and print traditionally. I want to do the lith developed paper prints first, I am thinking I may have to do the other stuff first. I was going to get the lith film from Freestyle, I notice they carry it. All I have is the red safelight.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 23, 2008

Actually, Fomabrom may not lith well in the classic sense, but it does produce some very unique results, with a look all to its own. Pepper fog in heaps, which can be very beautiful, and rather cold tones.

In regards to the developer - each of the lith developers I have tried have produced slightly different results. Try different dilutions, and if the process is slow, increase the temperature to about 75-80*F or so.
Welcome to fun printing. Lith is really addicting and fun.
- Thomas

Travis Nunn · Feb 23, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Actually, Fomabrom may not lith well in the classic sense, but it does produce some very unique results, with a look all to its own. Pepper fog in heaps, which can be very beautiful, and rather cold tones.

In regards to the developer - each of the lith developers I have tried have produced slightly different results. Try different dilutions, and if the process is slow, increase the temperature to about 75-80*F or so.
Welcome to fun printing. Lith is really addicting and fun.
- Thomas

Interesting, I've experienced no pepper fogging at all with Fomabrom. My standard developer is Maco Superlith 1:19 with an additional 25% old brown (all at room temperature). Generally what I get is a range of tones more akin to sepia toning.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 23, 2008

For those of you that are subscribers - click this link. It's to go to a photograph here, recently posted, printed on Fomabrom.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Maco Superlith as well.
- Thomas

Travis Nunn · Feb 24, 2008

OK, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about whether a paper lith prints well or not.

While I don't have my prints available to scan at the moment, the tones are similar to what is described by Tim Rudman here... http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Lith2/lith2.html (yes, I know this link is a few years old) and Fotoimpex here... http://www.fotoimpex.de/Fotopapiere/F_brom/f_brom.htm

Now, granted, I haven't lith printed with this paper in about a year so if the emulsion has changed and heavy pepper fogging is what is occurring with this paper now then I guess my information is outdated. My darkroom is down for the foreseeable future so I can't test and see for myself. In a day or two I'll post some scans of lith prints I made on Fomabrom.

craicfein · Feb 24, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Actually, Fomabrom may not lith well in the classic sense, but it does produce some very unique results, with a look all to its own. Pepper fog in heaps, which can be very beautiful, and rather cold tones.

In regards to the developer - each of the lith developers I have tried have produced slightly different results. Try different dilutions, and if the process is slow, increase the temperature to about 75-80*F or so.
Welcome to fun printing. Lith is really addicting and fun.
- Thomas

I have Agfa G101p developer, which I have never used, so I am thinking to start around 80*f and see what I get. With my setup it is easier for me to go cooler. I think I will mix two liters at 1:3 and use this as a stock solution so I can get the dilution dialed in. I think the Fomabrom sounds interesting. I appreciate everyone who took the time to reply and I am grateful for the info on the paper, as this will affect the negative I choose. Again, Thomas and everyone who replied thanks, I am looking forward to lith printing.

Travis Nunn · Feb 24, 2008

OK, here are the lith prints that I made using Foma Fomabrom paper. These were made about a year ago.

Appomattox Bell - Maco Superlith 1:19, 25% Old Brown, Selenium Toned
Chickahominy Trees #1 - Maco Superlith 1:19, 25% Old Brown, Gold Toned
Chickahominy Trees #2 - Maco Superlith 1:19, 25% Old Brown, Gold Toned
East Humber Bay Sunrise - Naccolith 1:19, no Old Brown, Untoned
Hogcamp Branch and Hemlocks - Naccolith 1:19, no Old Brown, Selenium Toned
Tree and Fog - Naccolith 1:19, no Old Brown, Untoned

I'm not crazy about a few of them, but I just posted them to show how this paper can lith print untoned, gold toned and selenium toned.

roy · Feb 25, 2008

The "East Humber Bay" print typifies, for me anyway, the beauty of the process. Colours emerge that really make the print something out of the ordinary, even when untoned.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 25, 2008

There is no pissing contest, Travis. This means that something else in the process caused this.
Good information to have. I see that you are mixing your chemistry fairly concentrated. I don't know what 1:19 actually means. Do you add the volume of A and B together and ration that against the volume of water? If so, I'm doing about 1:16 with Arista Lith (which is similar in strength to MacoLith it seems), which is comparable. I then try to keep the chemistry temp above 75*F. If I can get similar results to this with Fomabrom you'll see me frolicking in the dark...

Thanks, Travis.

Travis Nunn said:
OK, here are the lith prints that I made using Foma Fomabrom paper. These were made about a year ago.

Appomattox Bell - Maco Superlith 1:19, 25% Old Brown, Selenium Toned

Chickahominy Trees #1 - Maco Superlith 1:19, 25% Old Brown, Gold Toned

Chickahominy Trees #2 - Maco Superlith 1:19, 25% Old Brown, Gold Toned

East Humber Bay Sunrise - Naccolith 1:19, no Old Brown, Untoned

Hogcamp Branch and Hemlocks - Naccolith 1:19, no Old Brown, Selenium Toned

Tree and Fog - Naccolith 1:19, no Old Brown, Untoned

I'm not crazy about a few of them, but I just posted them to show how this paper can lith print untoned, gold toned and selenium toned.

nze · Feb 25, 2008

I get pepper print with Fomabrom ,with my home made lith developer. Funney how good are your result.

Travis Nunn · Feb 25, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
...I see that you are mixing your chemistry fairly concentrated. I don't know what 1:19 actually means. Do you add the volume of A and B together and ration that against the volume of water?...

By 1:19 I mean in one container I mix 1 part A to 19 parts water and in another container I mix 1 part B to 19 parts water and then combine the two. When I add Old Brown it is 25% of the total volume. I don't concern myself with the temperature. Room temperature works for me.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 25, 2008

OK. Same thing. I use 100ml A to 1500ml water and then 100ml B to another 1500ml water. 1:16.

I wonder if the concentration has anything to do with it? I know the manufacturer's recommendations for Fotospeed LD-20 is pretty weak. Perhaps that would promote pepper fogging? Lower temperature would slow down the activity as well. If I didn't have heaters in my darkroom (one directly below the tray) my chemistry would be around 55*F in the winter time, and that would be a tad low... Room temp would be too low for me in the winter too since I keep my house at 62*F to save energy. I noticed that at about 75*F it really picks up activity.

- Thomas

Travis Nunn said:
By 1:19 I mean in one container I mix 1 part A to 19 parts water and in another container I mix 1 part B to 19 parts water and then combine the two. When I add Old Brown it is 25% of the total volume. I don't concern myself with the temperature. Room temperature works for me.

Travis Nunn · Feb 25, 2008

Naccolith seemed to give me the most color with Fomabrom. It can be a little hard to find now, but it's still out there. The Arista Liquidlith is sold in the same type bottles that Naccolith used, I wonder if they are the same...

craicfein · Feb 25, 2008

Wow, that East Humber Bay is very nice. I think I will broaden the type of negatives I print and spend my day off in the darkroom. If I get anything even remotely close to the tones in that print, I will be very happy.

Travis Nunn · Feb 25, 2008

craicfein said:
Wow, that East Humber Bay is very nice. I think I will broaden the type of negatives I print and spend my day off in the darkroom. If I get anything even remotely close to the tones in that print, I will be very happy.

Thanks, East Humber Bay scanned pretty well. There is more color in Tree and Fog and much better looking blues in the Chickahominy Trees #1. The others I don't really care for, I just kept them to remind myself what not to do next time . Selenium Toning really took out the color (I was toning at 1:4) of Appomattox Bell and Hogcamp Branch, I really don't like either of those two at all. The Chickahominy Trees #2 just didn't turn out the way I was intending, I have some better prints on a different paper. That's life with lith printing, you have to experiment to find what works for you.

Jarvman · Feb 27, 2008

I'd also like to try some lith printing with some pictures of graffiti along the Berlin wall that came out a little flat. I asked my tutor and he said that lith dev doesn't work with multigrade paper. What sort of paper would I need to buy and which is the 'best' lith developer to buy? There's fotospeed stuff on silverprint but I haven't really searched very far.

Travis Nunn · Feb 27, 2008

Jarvman said:
...I asked my tutor and he said that lith dev doesn't work with multigrade paper...

Your tutor was wrong...

Jarvman · Feb 28, 2008

Travis Nunn said:
Your tutor was wrong...

I thought it seemed wrong. I was sure I'd read that it could be done on any paper but just suited certain types. Is the fotospeeed lith any good? I'm looking for high contrast images from relatively flat negs.

Rich Ullsmith · Feb 28, 2008

Maybe the Fotospeed Lith paper is cheaper for you in UK, but I can't afford to play with it here. A great multigrade paper is the Foma MG classic, no end to the colors and contrasts that can be achieved. Great paper to start on. It likes a dilute bath.

Andrew Moxom · Feb 28, 2008

Regarding Fomaborm paper. I trust you are speaking about Fomabrom Variant 111. It is this paper that has given me heaps of pepper fog using Arista-Lith at the same dilution as Thomas. I saw Fomabrom 112 mentioned and wanted to clear up a potential typo and misleading info. Foma emulsion numbers can be very similar, and it helps if we are talking apples to apples

Travis Nunn · Feb 28, 2008

From what I can see on Freestyle's website, Fomabrom 111 is glossy and Fomabrom 112 is matte.

I was speaking of Variant 111. The only matte finish papers I've ever used for lith printing were Art Classic (which I loved for lith) and Art Document (which I didn't like for lith)

craicfein · Mar 2, 2008

I ended up going with Forte Polygrade V FB and was happy with the results. It is cold toned and I thought it suited the negatives I originally wanted to print better than the Fomabrom (112). I did lose one print that got snatched too late from the developer (I had my back turned setting up the next print). I didn't turn my back after that.

Jarvman · Mar 2, 2008

Is plain old Ilford multigrade suitable for lith printing? What are the results like? Any good?

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