Liquid Light issues...

ErinHilburn · Apr 7, 2006

Hello its me again with more problems I originally started using liquid light and was having these crazy problems with it. If I exposed it for longer than 2 seconds at the lowest light setting it would go very black. So I was only able to create the faintest of images. So I assumed it was just me since there was in fact an image however faint. But I put it aside b/c I was becoming quite irritated after using half the bottle to no avail. I stored it under the cereal cabinet in the kitchen. I went back to it about two weeks later and still every photograph was coming out black. So I got suspicious and put a bit on a piece of paper without exposing it and developed it and it too turned black. How is it possible that the liquid light became exposed when I only used it in the darkroom and it was only open long enough to be poured? I'm very confused and its a bit too expensive for me to go about wasting half bottles so if anyone has any idea as to what it could be I would appreciate the input.
Thanks so much,
Erin

Ryuji · Apr 7, 2006

I think the emulsion is fogged. Did you buy it recently? If so, the complaint should go to the store...

Emulsions age, particularly fast at elevated temperature. Emulsion scientists and engineers know many ways to slow it down, but never stop. If the bottle was transported or stored in poor conditions, it can be all fogged, and that seems to be your case. Unfortunately, there is no good way to remove fog from fogged emulsion.

Another possibility is that the paper you are using is fogging the emulsion. I always tell people never to pour back emulsion that ever touched paper because of this risk. (Most paper stocks contain agents used to destroy lignin, etc., which can fog emulsion.)

ErinHilburn · Apr 7, 2006

Thanks, but I didn't really want to take it back to the person who sold it to me because I've already used half the bottle trying to get it too work. But it was also the first time I used liquid light and so there is a high possibility that I did something detremental too it. I just didn't want too assume that it was a problem from the get go. Although he had it just sitting out in the store on a shelf and since "nobody uses liquid light anymore" it had been there forever. They all got a real kick out of the fact that I asked for it. But the experation was in 2007. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making any terrible mistakes. I did however try to save the emulsion and stick what wasn't used back in the bottle, so if that causes a problem then that was all me. Its also what I get for being cheap

Photo Engineer · Apr 7, 2006

Erin;

It is rather rare to get paper that will fog an emulsion like liquid light.

I have used 4 different kinds of paper right from my art store locally and have found none that fog the emulsion directly, but only with keeping over several weeks.

I doubt that is your problem. I think that the emulsion was kept poorly in the store and went into fog. If the very first sample you took was foggy, the obviously you had not poured anything back into the container and the emulsion was bad right then.

PE

raucousimages · Apr 7, 2006

I think your bottle was opened.

Wayne · Apr 7, 2006

This couldnt be the source of your initial problems, but you should know that frequent reheating of LL supposedly fogs it too. Its best to decant the large bottle into small containers (film cans work) the first time you liquify it, so they only have to be reheated 1-2 times more.

J and C should have their inexpensive Adolux emulsion in again shortly (mid-month I was told), if you want a cheaper way to go next time. I havent used it but I intend to try it unless someone says I shouldnt.

Wayne

removed account4 · Apr 7, 2006

raucousimages said:
I think your bottle was opened.

me too, i think someone opened it by mistake, either at the store, or where you have been storing it.

i've used liquid light off and on since 1986-7 and never had problems as was described. i used to even pour unused emulsion back into the bottle, never had problems either. maybe i was just lucky.

Dave Miller · Apr 7, 2006

If you can find a copy, a very good book on this process is :Silver Gelatin by Martin Reed & Sarah Jones published by Aurum Press.

Ryuji · Apr 7, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
It is rather rare to get paper that will fog an emulsion like liquid light.

I have used 4 different kinds of paper right from my art store locally and have found none that fog the emulsion directly, but only with keeping over several weeks.

That's probably because your emulsions are not sufficiently sensitized to increase the number of shallow electron traps in the right places. If you digest a pint of emulsion in a tiny piece of paper (most paper will do) for 20 minutes, most well sensitized chloride, chloroiodobromide and chlorobromide emulsions will fog very badly. Fog may occur in the coating system where the emulsion and paper come in contact. For comparison, if I wash the paper thoroughly and inertize the impurity in the paper, this doesn't affect at all, even with longer digestion with a piece of paper.

Photo Engineer · Apr 7, 2006

Ryuji said:
That's probably because your emulsions are not sufficiently sensitized to increase the number of shallow electron traps in the right places. If you digest a pint of emulsion in a tiny piece of paper (most paper will do) for 20 minutes, most well sensitized chloride, chloroiodobromide and chlorobromide emulsions will fog very badly. Fog may occur in the coating system where the emulsion and paper come in contact. For comparison, if I wash the paper thoroughly and inertize the impurity in the paper, this doesn't affect at all, even with longer digestion with a piece of paper.

That is not correct.

My emulsions are sensitized with sulfur for up to 1 hour at 60 deg C. They show no sensitivity to the various papers that I have used to coat them on. I have tested them fresh and after keeping. The ISO speed, as reported before, when coated on paper, has ranged up to ISO 200. The average enlarging speed on-easel is equivalent to Multigrade IV paper, which is my speed and curve shape reference. The Dmin is comparable to the reference as well.

If I have had fog, it was due to safelight fog with a long green sensitizing dye, or overfinish, or too much dopant. It has never been due to the paper itself.

Carrying out the digestion of an emulsion of any sort in the presence of paper is not common practice. I believe that the high temperature of this mixture has misled you if you use it for test purposes.

In any event, I have posted prints made from my sulfur sensitzed emulsions here on APUG, which were coated on Strathmore Smooth paper, obtainable from any art supply store. This is just one of dozens of types of paper that I have tried. I will have samples of these to show to the addendees of my workshop. The results speak for themselves.

PE

Ryuji · Apr 7, 2006

It's pretty useless to continue conversation with Ron Mowrey on this issue, where he didn't specify the halide composition but just telling me incorrect. The reduction potential needed to fog a grain depends on the halide composition. If you used grains with no chloride component, the emulsion may not be fogged with most impurites in the paper, as I indicated before.

It is also evident from the history of photographic industry that most photographic manufacturers had issues with paper mills who supplied the raw paper stock, because they were unwilling to meet the requirement to reduce or eliminate fog-inducing agents that are used to destroy lignin in cellulose stock.

ErinHilburn · Apr 7, 2006

Well you see I wasn't putting this on paper, but on a ceramic brain and teeth that had been polyurethaned over and had sat for about two weeks. But I did put it on paper to test to see if it was fog. I've only used it twice so I doubt it was my frequent reheating that caused the problem. Perhaps I will at least tell the store so noone else who purchases it will run into the same problems. If indeed it was a problem with store storage. Thanks everyone,
Erin

Photo Engineer · Apr 7, 2006

Erin;

These emulsions are sensitive to heat and light. They sit on dealers shelves for a long time when they really should be refrigerated. That is why there are so many problems with them.

Ryuji;

I have coated AgCl, AgCl/Br, AgCl/I, AgBr, and AgBr/I. I have posted all of this in the past on both APUG and PN. In fact, in a similar thread some time back, we had this same discussion, and we also had it on the phone.

I am fully aware of what all problems there were in the photo industry regarding papers, but none of the tests ever included heating an emulsion with paper in it.

I think its time that we saw some of your results, since you keep hammering away at mine. Lets see what you have done before you make any more posts criticizing my results or comments. I'm sure you have some fine prints to show for all of your hours of work making and coating emulsions. It would be nice of you to share them with us.

Thanks.

PE

Ryuji · Apr 7, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
I am fully aware of what all problems there were in the photo industry regarding papers, but none of the tests ever included heating an emulsion with paper in it.

ALL of the problems? Quite a confidence??

I think its time that we saw some of your results, since you keep hammering away at mine. Lets see what you have done before you make any more posts criticizing my results or comments. I'm sure you have some fine prints to show for all of your hours of work making and coating emulsions. It would be nice of you to share them with us.

Ron, I gave you a few of my formulae and I also supplied additional information regarding phthalated gelatin, etc. I also gave you links to scans of prints I made with some of very simple emulsions. Of course, I am still distributing emulsion recipes in PDF form, free of charge, to anyone who wants to learn how to make emulsions. Some people, who I never met, followed my recipe and made a successful emulsion within a week, and sent me a link of his scans.

I have made many more modern emulsions. They are generally core-shell structures involving at least 3 layers, and selectively doped. I'm willing to provide details of these emulsions but last time you talked (before your level of nonsense exceeded my tolerance threshold) you had no interest in modern emulsions. Of course, if anyone is interested in doing these, I am happy to share the info. Indeed, I've started to put more of these info on web site for everyone to access, free of charge.

I've given instruction on how to make emulsions to a few people in New England (I'm located in Boston, MA) and most people are satisfied to know that emulsion can be made, without wishing to have their own emulsion making setup. More than half of people who contacted me are initially interested because of high price of liquid emulsion products. I have to tell them that if you make it it'll cost just as much, if not more. But if anyone is interested, I can arrange a meeting for an actual making demo, but actual making takes one hour (and high tech ones many hours) so we'll be stuck in darkroom for that long.

Photo Engineer · Apr 7, 2006

Ryuji said:
ALL of the problems? Quite a confidence??

Ron, I gave you a few of my formulae and I also supplied additional information regarding phthalated gelatin, etc. I also gave you links to scans of prints I made with some of very simple emulsions. Of course, I am still distributing emulsion recipes in PDF form, free of charge, to anyone who wants to learn how to make emulsions. Some people, who I never met, followed my recipe and made a successful emulsion within a week, and sent me a link of his scans.

I have made many more modern emulsions. They are generally core-shell structures involving at least 3 layers, and selectively doped. I'm willing to provide details of these emulsions but last time you talked (before your level of nonsense exceeded my tolerance threshold) you had no interest in modern emulsions. Of course, if anyone is interested in doing these, I am happy to share the info. Indeed, I've started to put more of these info on web site for everyone to access, free of charge.

I've given instruction on how to make emulsions to a few people in New England (I'm located in Boston, MA) and most people are satisfied to know that emulsion can be made, without wishing to have their own emulsion making setup. More than half of people who contacted me are initially interested because of high price of liquid emulsion products. I have to tell them that if you make it it'll cost just as much, if not more. But if anyone is interested, I can arrange a meeting for an actual making demo, but actual making takes one hour (and high tech ones many hours) so we'll be stuck in darkroom for that long.

Ryuji, you have made an almost identical post here before. Thank you for repeating it though.

Don't keep telling us about things, please post some of your pictures so that we may all share them. It is one thing to wantonly criticize, it is another to constructively criticize with data. It wouild be most helpful if we could communicate without acrimony, but you seem to want to continue the argument. I have seen exactly one formula and one print of yours. The formula is very similar to one published by Jim Browning. I have mentioned that before.

I don't wish to continue this argument.

I want to present simple, easy to make emulsions that are easy to repeat and can be coated on available papers. I have achieved that. I have demonstrated it and my coating method to others here. I am preparing to teach it. I hope you have the opportunity to do the same.

I don't want people to have to learn organic or physical chemistry to make phthalated gelatin or an emulsion. Most members here could care less about the chemistry, they want results.

I wish you all the best.

PE

Ryuji · Apr 7, 2006

However constructive in providing my information and experience in the past, you very often told me I'm wrong, when it's evident that I'm not. You did the same to some others, as well. That's why I don't want to share much information with you any more. You claim you have all the secrets from Eastman Kodak and now you are charging a lot of money to offer workshops, but anyone who knows emulsion chemistry can tell that many of your posts are distorting the fact to accomodate your contentions. I'm not interested in dissipating in such a fight, nor will I approve your nonsense.

Anyway, the thread is far from where we started with Erin's problem. I'll close this thread.

Photo Engineer · Apr 7, 2006

Erin;

My apologies. Sorry that it came to this. It seems that when I ask for Ryuji to post some sample prints, he suddenly vanishes.

He also criticizes the cost of my workshops when I have nothing to do with the fee. He is free to set his own up if he wishes.

I stand by my comment that the paper is not likely to be the source of your problem. I will be glad to work with you to resolve the fog problem.

PE

doughowk · Apr 8, 2006

ADOLUX

J&C's ADOLUX is an excellent product at a very reasonable price. I've re-heated the container several times until entirely used and have not noticed any fog. I do keep my stock in the refrigerator.

krisbfunk · Apr 16, 2006

fogged liquid light

I had the same problem with a bottle of liquid light that's expiry was listed as 2007. I bought it from a shop in Montreal called "Photo Service", I called them and found their customer service was the poorest I've ever encountered, and ended up disconnecting the call with them. Then I called Rockland directly and they were completely surprised the bottle was fogged, they said they rarely receive complaints, would test the batch and promptly shipped me a new bottle within 1 week, which works great.

ErinHilburn · Apr 17, 2006

wow that was really nice of them

Liquid Light issues...

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