Liquid Light and Kodak Rapid Fixer with Hardener?

JustK · Nov 6, 2007

Greetings!

I was just about to start playing with Liquid Light when I read that you should not use a rapid fixer with this product? Is this really true?

I have a ton of Kodak rapid fixer and was hoping to use it with the hardener and do my usual two-bath at one minute each fixing process, I hate to buy and store more chemicals, but I will if I have to...

Any advice/experience is much appreciated!
Cheers, K

Photo Engineer · Nov 6, 2007

If it is gelatin based, then the Kodak fixer should work just fine. I use it all the time with my home made emulsions with no problem.

PE

JustK · Nov 6, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
If it is gelatin based, then the Kodak fixer should work just fine. I use it all the time with my home made emulsions with no problem.

PE

Hi PE,
Did you mean that if I use a gelatin as a base layer (which I did to coat some glass, but not to coat some paper), then I can use the Kodak rapid fixer without problems?
Thanks for clarifying!
K

Photo Engineer · Nov 6, 2007

No, if the Liquid Light is a normal gelatin based system (which it should be) then the use of KRLF with hardener is just fine.

I assume you will be hardening the LL with something as well.

PE

JustK · Nov 6, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
No, if the Liquid Light is a normal gelatin based system (which it should be) then the use of KRLF with hardener is just fine.

I assume you will be hardening the LL with something as well.

PE

Yes, the product I bought called "Liquid Light" by Rockland Colloid is a gelatin based silver emulsion, I did not make my own emulsion, and it was their instruction sheet that warned against using a rapid fixer, but I know that you are an expert in this area and I will trust that with a hardener I should be okay.

I do not know about hardening the LL, it is not mentioned in the instruction sheet, is this something for home-made emulsions?

BTW Thank you for your rapid replies!!!
Cheers, K

Vaughn · Nov 6, 2007

I suggest trying the Kodak Rapid Fixer without the hardener. Our students seem to get better results (less bubbling and lifting of the image) that way.

Kodak powdered fixer is the recommended fixer, but give the Rapid Fixer w/ and w/o the hardener a try, and let us know if you find any significant difference.

From your fixing times, it sounds like you plan to use it a the "film strength". If that gives you problems, you might want to dilute it to "paper strength".

Vaughn

Photo Engineer · Nov 6, 2007

JustK said:
Yes, the product I bought called "Liquid Light" by Rockland Colloid is a gelatin based silver emulsion, I did not make my own emulsion, and it was their instruction sheet that warned against using a rapid fixer, but I know that you are an expert in this area and I will trust that with a hardener I should be okay.

I do not know about hardening the LL, it is not mentioned in the instruction sheet, is this something for home-made emulsions?

BTW Thank you for your rapid replies!!!
Cheers, K

Ok, I see the problem here for you and for Vaughan.

The LL seems to be a normal emulsion with gelatin, but they do not give any suggestions for hardening.

Any treatment with any bath will cause bubbles and scale to form under those conditions as gelatin melts at 68 degrees, and therefore needs to be hardened.

To harden the emulsion, buy Glyoxal solution from someplace like the Formulary or other supplier. Dilute this 1:9 with water to make 10% of the original and then use it at the rate of about 5 ml / 100 ml of emulsion with 10% gelatin (you will have to figure this out by trial and error).

After coating, the glyoxal will harden and then the emulsion will go through almost any solution. It takes about 4 - 8 hours to harden depending on surface if paper, and up to 12 hours to harden if on a film surface.

If you cannot get Glyoxal, use a 10% solution of Chrome Alum instead, but it takes longer to harden.

Remember, the original problem and recommendation by the makers of LL appear to be based on the lack of hardening in the emulsion itself.

ALL modern emulsions are hardened except for Matrix and Pan Matrix film. It appears as if LL is not a 'modern' emulsion or their instructions are incomplete.

PE

JustK · Nov 6, 2007

Vaughn said:
I suggest trying the Kodak Rapid Fixer without the hardener. Our students seem to get better results (less bubbling and lifting of the image) that way.

Kodak powdered fixer is the recommended fixer, but give the Rapid Fixer w/ and w/o the hardener a try, and let us know if you find any significant difference.

From your fixing times, it sounds like you plan to use it a the "film strength". If that gives you problems, you might want to dilute it to "paper strength".

Vaughn

Thanks for your reply Vaughn, it is good to know that you are getting good results with the Kodak Rapid Fixer, and yes, I will try the KRF first without the hardener and at paper strength, I'll be testing on watercolor paper and then trying it with glass, we'll see what happens...

You mentioned your students, and I have to tell you that in my photo class not only are the students using Sprint's rapid fixer for this process, but they are also using the Liquid Light VC emulsion (which requires a red safelight) in normal darkroom amber light, I pointed these things out to the instructor and he was not concerned, having done this the same way for years, so much for the instruction sheet!

Cheers, K

gandolfi · Nov 6, 2007

well - I never (or almost never) use hardening fix for my images with liquid emulsion...
I tried the Liquid Light many years ago, but being from Denmark, Europe, it is much easier and far more cheap to get the FOMa liquid emulsion.
here a small bottle of hardener is supplied with the emulsion when I buy it, and it can therefore be added if needed..

I thow it away!

reason? I don't need it (the emulsion reacts perfectly without) and (and this could be your decision point in the long run) as I am doing a lot of bromoils, using liquid emulsion as matrix, I have to use non hardened emulsion.
works like a charm.

TETENAL makes a non hardening fix as powder, called Vario fix.

good luck - it is HIGHLY addictive!!

JustK · Nov 6, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Ok, I see the problem here for you and for Vaughan.

The LL seems to be a normal emulsion with gelatin, but they do not give any suggestions for hardening.

Any treatment with any bath will cause bubbles and scale to form under those conditions as gelatin melts at 68 degrees, and therefore needs to be hardened.

To harden the emulsion, buy Glyoxal solution from someplace like the Formulary or other supplier. Dilute this 1:9 with water to make 10% of the original and then use it at the rate of about 5 ml / 100 ml of emulsion with 10% gelatin (you will have to figure this out by trial and error).

After coating, the glyoxal will harden and then the emulsion will go through almost any solution. It takes about 4 - 8 hours to harden depending on surface if paper, and up to 12 hours to harden if on a film surface.

If you cannot get Glyoxal, use a 10% solution of Chrome Alum instead, but it takes longer to harden.

Remember, the original problem and recommendation by the makers of LL appear to be based on the lack of hardening in the emulsion itself.

ALL modern emulsions are hardened except for Matrix and Pan Matrix film. It appears as if LL is not a 'modern' emulsion or their instructions are incomplete.

PE

Thank you PE for the explanation and a solution, that explains why there are so many stories about the emulsion just dissolving or lifting off in the fix, for now I will have to go without hardening the LL because I only have a short time to play with this stuff in my photo class, but in the future I will try your recommendation.

Cheers, K

RobertP · Nov 6, 2007

PE...would formaldehyde work as a hardener?

removed account4 · Nov 6, 2007

hi k

i have used liquid light for years
with sprint rapid fix
never had a problem
some use the hardener, but i have never used hardener ...
i use it mostly on glass, never really used the liquid light on paper.

you might call rockland colloid up, their phone number is on their
website, and they like to help people

good luck!

john

Photo Engineer · Nov 6, 2007

RobertP said:
PE...would formaldehyde work as a hardener?

Yes, if you don't mind the toxicity and odor.

PE

RobertP · Nov 6, 2007

Ah hell PE that's just a matter of changing to the right respirator filters.( joke- but true). I know it works great for gum bichromate or gum over platinum as a hardener.

JustK · Nov 7, 2007

jnanian said:
hi k

i have used liquid light for years
with sprint rapid fix
never had a problem
some use the hardener, but i have never used hardener ...
i use it mostly on glass, never really used the liquid light on paper.

you might call rockland colloid up, their phone number is on their
website, and they like to help people

good luck!

john

Thanks John for your reply, I read all of your earlier posts about Liquid Light, and they inspired me to try it on glass, so thanks for sharing your experiences with the product, and thanks for your encouragement!
Cheers, K

removed account4 · Nov 7, 2007

JustK said:
Thanks John for your reply, I read all of your earlier posts about Liquid Light, and they inspired me to try it on glass, so thanks for sharing your experiences with the product, and thanks for your encouragement!
Cheers, K

thanks k

i am pretty low-tech, and that approach seemed to work well with LL.

john

Photo Engineer · Nov 7, 2007

Well, here is a precautionary note.

If an emulsion is coated without a hardener, then it will blister or just dissolve. If an emulsion is shipped with hardener, it tends to harden on the shelf and become useless. It can also fog due to the effects of the hardener.

Chrome alum used to be used, and emulsions used to be made and stored with this hardener mixed in. This is fine and it keeps well, but due to this same property, it hardens very slowly.

So, either LL has no hardener or it uses chrome alum. In either case, this is probably the reason for all of the precautions above.

When I use chrome alum for hardener though, it actually reduces defects in KRLF with the hardener in it, but it improves adhesion to glass and ceramics.

So, just a few notes on this for your information.

PE

JustK · Nov 7, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Well, here is a precautionary note.

If an emulsion is coated without a hardener, then it will blister or just dissolve. If an emulsion is shipped with hardener, it tends to harden on the shelf and become useless. It can also fog due to the effects of the hardener.

Chrome alum used to be used, and emulsions used to be made and stored with this hardener mixed in. This is fine and it keeps well, but due to this same property, it hardens very slowly.

So, either LL has no hardener or it uses chrome alum. In either case, this is probably the reason for all of the precautions above.

When I use chrome alum for hardener though, it actually reduces defects in KRLF with the hardener in it, but it improves adhesion to glass and ceramics.

So, just a few notes on this for your information.

PE

Hi again PE!
I got curious about the hardener and checked the MSDS on Liquid Light; it lists the following ingredients: silver halides, silver bromide, silver chromide, gelatin, cadmium chloride and water; I am not a chemist but it looks like LL does not have a hardener nor does it have chrome alum, which warrants all the precautions; I looked at another commercial product called Black Magic and it comes with a hardener that you can add but I could not find out what chemical is used.
Thanks again for all your replies PE, they have been very informative!!!
Cheers, K

Photo Engineer · Nov 7, 2007

Well, without a hardener, any emulsion would blister. This is a fundamental problem that gets worse on film or plates. If you use a hardener, then this problem is eliminated for all practical purposes.

PE

Photo Engineer · Nov 7, 2007

Remember that Cadmium Chloride is toxic. This is why Kodak eliminated the chemical in the 60s. It is no longer used in the bulk of photo emulsions. This must be an ancient formula, as no new Cadmium emulsions have been produced by the major manufactureres in the last 30+ years.

PE

removed account4 · Nov 7, 2007

JustK said:
Hi again PE!
I got curious about the hardener and checked the MSDS on Liquid Light; it lists the following ingredients: silver halides, silver bromide, silver chromide, gelatin, cadmium chloride and water; I am not a chemist but it looks like LL does not have a hardener nor does it have chrome alum, which warrants all the precautions; I looked at another commercial product called Black Magic and it comes with a hardener that you can add but I could not find out what chemical is used.
Thanks again for all your replies PE, they have been very informative!!!
Cheers, K

hi k

black magic i beleive is made by foma, and the formulary sells
it as formulite ... i could be wrong though

john

ps. i still have plates i coated 20 years ago,
no hardener in the emulsion or fixer,
and no blistering emulsion ..
but as with everything YMMV

goodluck and have fun experimenting!

JustK · Nov 13, 2007

Just an update:

I went ahead and used the Kodak Rapid Fixer, without the hardener, with two baths at paper (not film) strength, first bath about 5 seconds, and second bath for the full 10 minutes, and so far no problems with the emulsion...

I learned however that you can't cheat on the fixing process, when I tried to quickly fix a few sheets at the same time, I found brown sticky stains remaining on the paper, probably due to insufficient fixing, but when I carefully processed each sheet one at a time I had no staining problems at all...

This Liquid Light is a lot of fun!
Cheers, K

Liquid Light and Kodak Rapid Fixer with Hardener?

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