Liquid emulsions with enough silver content for firing?

jsmoove · Oct 20, 2021

I am wondering what emulsions contain enough silver to survive being fused to glass.
I don't know much about what products are available these days.

I had read an earlier post from the photonet forum who mentions:

"As part of my PhD research I have been using liquid light on cast glass with some success using chemistry from Rockland Colloid.
I have used various varnishes as a sub but found the best results from cleaning the glass properly and applying the emulsion direct. I have done this mainly because I am then firing the glass in a kiln. AG-Plus has a higher silver content and so is ideal for firing but regular liquid light works just fine too."

From: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/liquid-light-on-glass.231705/

Has anyone tried firing liquid light, and is there an alternative to AG-Plus for high silver content? (it's discontinued)

koraks · Oct 21, 2021

Haven't tried, but I'd just give it a go with regular liquid light; if the results is too thin, just apply a heavier layers, or harden the first layer and then apply a second one before firing.

removed account4 · Oct 21, 2021

Thanks for posting the link to the Pnet thread, it was really nice to read David Prifti and Ron Mowrey's advise! I've never heard of firing glass like you are mentioning, but I agree with koraks to use regular old liquid light. do more than 1 coat. If you are attempting to sub the glass to get the emulsion to stick to it, I'd do as David Prifti details, I've had good success coating cleaned glass ( that water sheets off ) and immediately after it is coated putting it on a very cold surface. For years I used to sub the glass with gelatin or urethane but after reading the advice by wildbillbugman of the cold surface, I have never looked back.
Good luck!
John

jsmoove · Oct 21, 2021

I had asked Rockland directly and they told me liquid light would not survive the kiln....so now im super curious. I wonder what temperature he used?

https://www.photo.net/gallery/592725#//Sort-Newest/All-Categories/All-Time/Page-1

Shows his stuff, I wish I could contact the guy but photonet doesn't seem to allow me to create an account.
I suppose I will have to conduct my own experiments.

jsmoove · Oct 22, 2021

Picture in that link is something called "CE-1 Toner". What is CE-1?
Is it possible his method might have been to tone the liquid light so that the toner was bonded with the silver, then the silver burned away, leaving the toner?

koraks · Oct 22, 2021

jsmoove said:
then the silver burned away

The boiling point of silver is 2162C. Do you generally fire your clay that hot?
If you apply liquid light to ceramics and then fire the thing, the silver will either be part of the final product, or (worst case) it doesn't adhere well and flake off. It won't "burn away" for obvious reasons.

jsmoove · Oct 22, 2021

Definitely not! Though this is going to be my first kiln experiment, on glass. I will report back eventually.
I wonder why Rockland is telling me it won't survive the kiln. Maybe they mean flaking, like you're saying, since the gelatin would burn away first.

koraks · Oct 22, 2021

I don't know what Rockland means either. Maybe flaking, maybe the fact that you'll likely fire beyond the melting point of the silver, which means it may/will bleed to an extent. But...I'd be tempted to ask them if they've tried it, or have seen the results of someone who did. My bet is they didn't. Either way...try it! It's not likely to damage your kiln or produce more noxious gases than most of the other glazes you'd use.

Nodda Duma · Oct 22, 2021

I would suggest raising the kiln temperature very slowly, so that the remainder of the moisture in the gelatin is removed before you reach 100C and/or the melting point of the gelatin is reached. If held at or above 100C, the gelatin loses its strength, likely peeling off. My guess is that has to do with remaining moisture content. Hold at 120F, then 180F, then increase the heat.

You can probably test in your oven to see if it survives up to 400F or so without having to fire up the kiln.

Vaughn · Oct 22, 2021

You could make carbon prints using ash-less gelatin and transfer it to ceramics. Choose what metal you want to fire onto ceramics and put it in the carbon 'glop' (mix of gelatin, sugar and pigment). Basically, that is how they made the permanent portraits for gravestones.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-p...wazki-cemetery-in-warsaw-poland-21138570.html

jsmoove · Oct 23, 2021

Thanks all.
I am assuming all the silver based liquid emulsions would work basically in the same fashion under heat, they roughly have the same amount of silver and gelatin in them, is this correct?
Checking out different brands.
Also, what exactly would happen to the silver when fused with the glass, does it oxidize...? Does it melt into the glass or on the glass? ( I will find out )
As a side I know for glassblowing that they use dichroic images which are made of metal oxides, and those can be merged in or on.

Vaughn · Oct 23, 2021

The gelatin burns off, leaving the silver behind. That is why gelatin that leaves no ashes behind was/is used for ceramics.

It takes a certain amount of exposed/developed silver to block enough light to create a black. So the amount of the silver in the emulsion originally is not as critical of a factor as might be thought...as long as one can achieve the black one wants.

removed account4 · Oct 24, 2021

jsmoove said:
Thanks all.
I am assuming all the silver based liquid emulsions would work basically in the same fashion under heat, they roughly have the same amount of silver and gelatin in them, is this correct?
Checking out different brands.
Also, what exactly would happen to the silver when fused with the glass, does it oxidize...? Does it melt into the glass or on the glass? ( I will find out )
As a side I know for glassblowing that they use dichroic images which are made of metal oxides, and those can be merged in or on.

I hate to send you down a rabbit hole but. ...
have you tried to make your own emulsion? the silver nitrate is the part that is expensive
you can make a silver chloride emulsion in 20mins (you might not need to noodle and wash it if it is going to be burned off in the end )
http://thelightfarm.com/Map/DryPlate/Patton/DryPlatePart.htm
its just salt, water gelatin and silver, and if you don't slowly add the silver chloride into the gelatin and salt mixture you will get higher contrast.
just a thought if you can't find a bottled emulsion you like or want to use, and making emulsion yourself is pennies compared to dollars when you buy it.
you might keep an eye on freestyle's website, they sometimes sell expired/short date 2G containers of foma emulsion at a discount.

koraks · Oct 24, 2021

jnantz said:
you might not need to noodle and wash it if it is going to be burned off in the end

The noodle & wash is essential in preventing massive amounts of fog. It doesn't have much to do with burning off the gelatin.

It IS a rabbit hole indeed, with very little clear benefit in OP's application, but several severe drawbacks. Complexity and low emulsion speed being two of them, the vast number of opportunities for failure / a steep learning curve being a relevant third. Why go there if it's not necessary?

removed account4 · Oct 24, 2021

if the OP can't find what he needs he can make it ez pz. usually you noodle and wash excess out of things put on glass if it is on paper its not necessary and since the OP is just gonna torch stuff .. there really is nothing complex about this emulsion it's like 3 ingredients mixed together in like 20 mins or less.
I figured it was relevant because he might have to make his own. LOL. doesn't matter to me whether the OP does it or not, it was a suggestion seeing "ag+" isn't made anymore and that is what he was looking for. there are other recipes like home made chlorobromide (like ag+ ) that are also easy, except for you know. ... crushing the potassium bromide rocks

koraks said:
The noodle & wash is essential in preventing massive amounts of fog. It doesn't have much to do with burning off the gelatin.

not essential if the emulsion is going to be on paper its "washed" when it is processed.

koraks · Oct 24, 2021

jnantz said:
if the OP can't find what he needs

My suggestion would be to figure that out first before making things more complicated. That's all.

jsmoove · Oct 24, 2021

I would indeed like to make my own emulsions in the future (to save $ as well), but for first tests im going to use a product. One that has a fast speed. I've used liquid light in the past, I think it was fairly fast.
Which product is the fastest?
I was going to email the other liquid emulsion makers (Rollei, Adox, Foma.....are there others?) what their opinions are on using their products to coat on glass and fire and if they have any examples of use.
Thanks for the heads up on the Foma prices.

halfaman · Oct 25, 2021

I copy what it is reccommened in the instructions of Rollei Black Magic Liquid Emulsion

"For coating metal, plastic, glass or ceramic tiles, a precoat with alkyd resin primer or oil-based polyurethane paint should be carried out, these special primers are available at art shops."

190124_RBM_Anleitung_EN_DE.indd (rolleianalog.com)

DMJ · Oct 31, 2021

jnantz said:
have you tried to make your own emulsion?

I'm hijacking this thread. What are the advantages of making an emulsion over using the commercial ones (Fomaspeed, Rollei and Rockland) ? I'm thinking on making orthochromatic paper negatives with kozo paper and make rolls of 116/120. I have the silver but I need to buy a magnetic stirrer with a heat plate, and the salts.

Cheers

removed account4 · Oct 31, 2021

the main advantages ( for me ) are cost, and you can make your emulsion to your own needs - simple, complicated high silver, pop, slow, fast &c ... I don't use a magnetic stirrer ( I have one for priming yeast when I make beer but that is a different thread ) for mixing my emulsion, I put on eye protection, a rubber apron and nitrile gloves on and just stir it with a wooden spoon or plastic stirrer and dribble the silver in... I don't use a heat plate either I use a water jacket. I haven't had any trouble yet and I've made bunch of batches (my first batch was in my apt kitchen as a college student in the mid/late 1980s—no internet, no gurus like PE or Denise Ross or Jason Lane, just an olde photography annual from around 1904 ) .. photography can be as simple or complicated as people want to make it, I tend to go for the simple. then again buying pre made can be pretty simple so whatever floats your boat

DMJ · Oct 31, 2021

jnantz said:
photography can be as simple or complicated

I agree, and as a DIY type of person, I usually like complicating things, but I'm getting lazier by the day I will try one of the commercial emulsions and see what kind of problems I run into when coating and rolling the paper. I will probably start a thread about DIY paper negative rolls.

removed account4 · Oct 31, 2021

DMJ said:
I agree, and as a DIY type of person, I usually like complicating things, but I'm getting lazier by the day I will try one of the commercial emulsions and see what kind of problems I run into when coating and rolling the paper. I will probably start a thread about DIY paper negative rolls.

have fun!
John

jsmoove · Nov 29, 2021

Just a follow up to this, I was able to contact the guy who posted: https://www.photo.net/photo/4347924
He couldn't find his phd research, but said it was either ce-1 or ce-41 toner he had used at the time, which he had remembered being some sort of ceramic toner.
Rockland, Adox and Foma all told me the same thing, that their silver gelatin emulsions would not survive a kiln.
Im assuming because they just peel off because the gelatin goes first.

Does anyone know what this toner might have been, or guess the process?

Liquid emulsions with enough silver content for firing?

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