Liquid emulsion problem - advice needed!

gandolfi · Dec 2, 2013

I have a problem!
Or rather my students have a problem, and I can't figure it out so hence this post....

When printing the emulsion (FOMA's stuff) everything looks good in the developer - and also in the rinse (stop, which is water), but the second it comes in fixer, be it hardening or hardening, the image turns almost totally black....

I don't really get it, as some have this issue - some not. It rarely happens to me.

And today two students made prints - from the same batch of emulsion - same surface - same chemistry... the one got fine looking images - the other the balck "version"...

How can this happen?

Educate me please...

MDR · Dec 2, 2013

What was the surface, was the coating applied in the same manner, was it dried for the same amount of time and most importantly did they use the same fixer at the same time or did the person with the good results use the fixer before the person with the bad results (exhausted fixer and sulfur build up could be a cause for the image going black)
Come to think of it I had some problems with the foma emulsion on wood.

Good luck

Hexavalent · Dec 2, 2013

Try a longer time in the stop, and acid stop. Being a liquid emulsion, it's probably not hardened, and holds a lot of dev. Carry-over into the fix can make an emulsion foggy, give it a strange colour tint, or make it go black.

gandolfi · Dec 2, 2013

MDR: it has happened both on paper and on wood. I thought about the exhausted fixer and we have made fresh fix - with same result...

Ian: Yes - we normally use tap water - and that will exhaust rather quickly... I'll make some tests with acidic stop...

The thing that bothers me most is, this almost never happens to me.... (same equipment used...)

Thanks.

MDR · Dec 3, 2013

Maybe the emulsion was fogged after the stop bath, someone using the enlarger while she/he carried the material from one tray to the other. Also as hexavalent said liquid emulsion might hold more developer and the stop bath was not long and or strong enough to stop the development process. Wood holds probably even more chemistry than paper. You might wanna try the Rollei/Maco emulsion hardener it's put into the developer instead of the fixingbath. Use the stopbath for twice the recommended time for normal paper (might attack the emulsion so pre-hardening is recommended)
Again good luck.

removed account4 · Dec 3, 2013

hi gandolfi

were you there when they made the prints
and they blackened ?

maybe it isn't fixer they are putting it into but something else ..
i processed 7 plates a few months ago in alum hardener by mistake
so i know accidents can happen

john

gandolfi · Dec 3, 2013

MDR said:
Maybe the emulsion was fogged after the stop bath, someone using the enlarger while she/he carried the material from one tray to the other. Also as hexavalent said liquid emulsion might hold more developer and the stop bath was not long and or strong enough to stop the development process. Wood holds probably even more chemistry than paper. You might wanna try the Rollei/Maco emulsion hardener it's put into the developer instead of the fixingbath. Use the stopbath for twice the recommended time for normal paper (might attack the emulsion so pre-hardening is recommended)
Again good luck.

hardener is provided with the Foma emulsion - I never use it... (it's a total no-go if using the papers for bromoil prints..)

I think the issue could be in the thichness of the papers - the students (and me) are using the same emulsion - same developer - same stop and fix... and it always happens after the stop/rinse, so the difference between us has to be how we coat our papers - some thinner than others.... And if thick, then the stop might be insufficient..

gandolfi · Dec 3, 2013

jnanian said:
hi gandolfi

were you there when they made the prints
and they blackened ?

maybe it isn't fixer they are putting it into but something else ..
i processed 7 plates a few months ago in alum hardener by mistake
so i know accidents can happen

john

I know I know - but here I am sure the process was followed according to plan... (almost.. )

MDR · Dec 3, 2013

It seems that you've found the culprit different coating thickness and not enough stop bath time-

Check out the brushes different brushes will soak up different amounts of emulsion and cause different layer thickness and more importantly if a change in the stopbath regimen doesn't help you might have contaminated brushes.

Love your work
Good luck to you and your students

pasiasty · Feb 3, 2014

I recently faced similar (yet not the same) issue with Foma emulsion: I double coated watercolour paper, exposed contact prints on it - while in developer or the in a stop bath, the image looked quite well, greys and black were even; once put into fixer, brush strokes and paper texture became very visible. And yes, the picture got a bit darker (not blackened, anyway), but that's expected.

I wonder if triple (or more) coating may help. The paper is quite coarse.

I use acidic stop bath, also because the watercolour paper seems to be pH-balanced using some alkali - it hisses when poured into acidic bath. Next time I'll buy better one... Anyway, if it's not enough stopping in water that causes blackening, you may try acidic.

Gandolfi: the two students of you, did they both expose and develop the prints the same way?

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2014

Generally, hand coatings are quite a bit thicker than production coatings. This means more carryover of chemistry and thus more developer can get into the fix, especially if the stop is just a tray of water. Running water is better and an acid stop is the best.

It also depends on the pH of the fixer. An acid fixer with hardener is best.

PE

Alowies · Dec 20, 2017

Hello everybody, I thought I could ask a similar question here... Sorry if this is not ok. I am doing some tests with trying to print an image onto an mattrass... Obvious this brings some problems like the fact that it is very spongy and porous... But after I did some tests I with different pre-layers of coating I managed to get an image onto different types of pre-layers.... The only thing is that after a week it almost disappeared... (not turned into black - just disappeared). Off course I do Stop and Fix very short (because otherwise the mattrass gets bigger from all the liquid and my upper layer breaks).... But this should not be the problem as short fix should turn my image into a different color? Anyway my liquid emulsion is 20 years over time... Could this be it? I thought it was ok since it still developed pictures... Any advice is welcome. Thanks!

chris77 · Dec 20, 2017

20 years!!???? even when stored in the fridge. this is too long.

Nodda Duma · Dec 20, 2017

I agree with chris... suggest buying a bottle of fresh Liquid Light and eliminating that variable.

Photo Engineer · Dec 20, 2017

A vanishing image can be a sign of under fixing and washing.

PE

removed account4 · Dec 20, 2017

i have used liquid light that was 20 years old, both the VC flavor and the fixed grade ( not the ag+ )
it gains contrast ( sometimes ) i've never had images vanish though.

Liquid emulsion problem - advice needed!

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