Linhof has a new analogue lens price list

David Lindquist · Dec 1, 2020

http://linhof.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/2020_linhof_analog-objektive.pdf

Dated 1 November 2020, not surprisingly it's a short list. Shows the Apo Sironar S in focal lengths of 210, 240, 300 and 360 mm. Further they are described as Rodenstock's "Edition" series. Rodenstock made this series of lenses circa 2018, see here:

https://www.largeformatphotography....67-New-production-run-of-Apo-Sironar-S-lenses

This series also included the 150 mm Apo Sironar S; evidently these are all gone. Linhof & Studio shows "Sold Out" for this lens and Badger Graphic no longer has it on their website.

Linhof's previous analogue lens price list dated 1 April 2019 showed the 90 mm Super Angulon XL and the Apo Sironar S (not described as "Edition" series) in the four above focal lengths plus 150 mm.

David

138S · Dec 2, 2020

Those prices are out of my reach, but it's great to see that this fantastic LF glass is still sold new.

David Lindquist · Dec 2, 2020

138S said:
Those prices are out of my reach, but it's great to see that this fantastic LF glass is still sold new.

In addition to Badger Graphics in the US and Linhof & Studio in Great Britain, Christoph Greiner Photo in Germany also shows these four lenses. Prices from all three are roughly the same and yes, a bit eye-watering. Interestingly, to me anyway, it looks like Greiner has several other analogue large format lenses available, see: https://www.greiner-photo.de/product-category/objektive2013-04-09-08-48-47-2/fachoptik-analog/
As far as I can tell these are all new but since I can't read German I may be missing something.

Times like this I wish I had used German rather French to fulfill my foreign language requirement at university. But to be honest I'm sure that at this point in my life if the Greiner website were in French I still wouldn't be able to read it.

David

Bob S · Dec 2, 2020

David Lindquist said:
In addition to Badger Graphics in the US and Linhof & Studio in Great Britain, Christoph Greiner Photo in Germany also shows these four lenses. Prices from all three are roughly the same and yes, a bit eye-watering. Interestingly, to me anyway, it looks like Greiner has several other analogue large format lenses available, see: https://www.greiner-photo.de/product-category/objektive2013-04-09-08-48-47-2/fachoptik-analog/
As far as I can tell these are all new but since I can't read German I may be missing something.

Times like this I wish I had used German rather French to fulfill my foreign language requirement at university. But to be honest I'm sure that at this point in my life if the Greiner website were in French I still wouldn't be able to read it.

David

Greiner is the supplier to Badger. Badger was never an authorized US Rodenstock dealer but specialized in grey market lenses and many cameras.

David Lindquist · Dec 2, 2020

And thank you for the translation michael_r. I should have looked harder. Even I know that "neu" in German means "new."

And in the thread from large format photography forum that I cited, Bob S suggested the possibility that Greiner was behind the production run of the Apo-Sironar S "Edition" series.

David

David Lindquist · Dec 2, 2020

Also as of today Linhof's current price list for "everything else" is still dated September 2018, see their website for both a pdf and an excel version.
And their German language website (only) has in addition a "Produktliste", a 26 page pdf with illustrations and descriptive text (German only), it's dated 1 April 2018.
See: http://linhof.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/linhof_produkte_2018_11.pdf

David

138S · Dec 3, 2020

David Lindquist said:
As far as I can tell these are all new but since I can't read German I may be missing something.

David, just use the translation feature of the web browser, it does a perfect job in that case, when translating from chinese result can be kafkian, but from german translation is sound.

Tel · Dec 3, 2020

Well out of my price range, but nonetheless good to see that they're still making new Copals.

138S · Dec 3, 2020

Searching sold items at ebay, there are some 6 Sironar S sells per month, at around 30% to 50% the list price new, so the list price for new units is not that excessive compared to used gear, if pocket has necessary depth.

Still it's not clear how such small production runs can be profitable, at any selling price. Two possibilities come to mind, one is that perhaps surplus elements had been manufactured and stored, perhaps last batch of grinded elements aimed having a long term stock to have the components available without manufacturing, given the low sales in the product decline age... another possibility is new very automated/precise machinery allowing economic small production or even custom works.

Anyway, for a big corporation go to such a small production run... probably it's not (only) about money, so we should be grateful to have our beloved glass still listed.

Oren Grad · Dec 3, 2020

Tel said:
Well out of my price range, but nonetheless good to see that they're still making new Copals.

The Rodenstock "Edition" series introduced in 2018 was produced using old-stock shutters. Copal shutter production was discontinued several years ago. Manufacturer inventories of old-stock shutters have now run out.

https://www.cambousa.com/end-copal-2019

https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/t...ve-the-king-the-end-of-the-copal-shutter-era/

Oren Grad · Dec 3, 2020

138S said:
Anyway, for a big corporation go to such a small production run... probably it's not (only) about money, so we should be grateful to have our beloved glass still listed.

The Rodenstock "Edition" series was commissioned by Christoph Greiner:

https://grossformatfotografie.de/th...neue-optiken-von-rodenstock-incl-bestätigung/

138S · Dec 3, 2020

Oren Grad said:
The Rodenstock "Edition" series was commissioned by Christoph Greiner:

https://grossformatfotografie.de/thread/15198-keine-geheimniskrämerei-neue-optiken-von-rodenstock-incl-bestätigung/

Yes, I was aware, I've read the OP's links... but even if comissioned by Greiner the manufacturer has to source Sironar-S 150mm units for (say) less than 2000€, if Greiner is to sell the lens for 2675€.

Being the market that small (10 units per year for each focal, perhaps?), the question is how can Rodenstock make such an small production of such a high end product whithout the fixed costs per unit being greater than 2000€.

My suspicion is that a big corporation won't make a production run of such a product totalling (say) 20,000€ to get net (say) 2,000€ before taxes, Herr Greiner must have an special relationship with somebody important inside Rodenstock (or Qioptiq), to me it looks this is something that's beyond money, IMO this is not business as usual.

We have witnessed the Kang Rinpoche event, that C 600 clone, in China such things are possible... in the EU it's a different context.

Bob S · Dec 3, 2020

Both Rodenstock and LInhof make production runs for specific customers as long as the customer commits to the entire production run and parts (shutters) are available.
An example was the Japanese LInhof distributor commissioning the factory to make a version of the Technikardan 45 that did not fold on the rail, or we, HP Marketing, buying all of the black Master Technika cameras that they could make or Rodenstock putting back into production 120 and 150mm Imagon lenses exclusively for Schmactenburg and Zeus producing special versions of the Prontor Professional for Schmactenburg and another version for LInhof for the Technikardan.

138S · Dec 3, 2020

Bob S said:
Rodenstock putting back into production 120 and 150mm Imagon lenses exclusively for Schmactenburg and Zeus producing special versions of the Prontor Professional for Schmactenburg and another version for LInhof for the Technikardan.

Bob, OK, but the Imagon is a toy compared to a Sironar-S, perhaps QC did not had to reject an Imagon ever, a single group, two element lens, intended to work more or less blurred.

Instead a Sironar-S, you know, it's the very best, sporting a large front ED element and having to nail top performance in its entire field, with a complex assembly and tight QC, no dog can be allowed in the series. It has to be quite a challenge to launch an small production run without spending more in the launch that what it would be paid for it. The 5 focals contained 30 different elements, 5 of ED type. How much can it be the cost of launching the production of a single element of those 30?

Bob S · Dec 3, 2020

138S said:
Bob, OK, but the Imagon is a toy compared to a Sironar-S, perhaps QC did not had to reject an Imagon ever, a single group, two element lens, intended to work more or less blurred.

Instead a Sironar-S, you know, it's the very best, sporting a large front ED element and having to nail top performance in its entire field, with a complex assembly and tight QC, no dog can be allowed in the series. It has to be quite a challenge to launch an small production run without spending more in the launch that what it would be paid for it. The 5 focals contained 30 different elements, 5 of ED type. How much can it be the cost of launching the production of a single element of those 30?

Who knows? Greiner was willing to pay whatever the factory charged. He contacted his network of dealers for how many they wanted before he issued a purchase order. He wasn’t going to sit on the total production himself.

the Imagons meet the same QC as any other Rodenstock taking or enlarging lens. On top of that barrels, disks, etc.. for those small Imagons had to also be produced. Those focal lengths had been discontinued for several decades when Schmactenburg ordered them. The only concession the factory gave him was that he would also become the worldwide distributor for the 200mm Imagon in mounts and shutter for 35 and mf cameras. The factory would continue as the supplier for the 200 to 300 Imagon for view cameras.

David Lindquist · Dec 6, 2020

138S said:
David, just use the translation feature of the web browser, it does a perfect job in that case, when translating from chinese result can be kafkian, but from german translation is sound.

View attachment 260842 View attachment 260841

Been away from this thread for a little bit...

Thank you for this, I'll look to see if Safari has a translate feature (also have Firefox). It would certainly beat copying and pasting to google translate.

David

David Lindquist · Dec 6, 2020

michael_r said:
David, regarding the limited run Rodenstock models, just to add another source, Mike Walker (Walker cameras) has some too.

Funny this thread is seeing more action on here than on LFPF. Although the prices are probably just too high to generate a whole lot of interest. I don’t mean to say the prices aren’t justified, especially for a small production run. Just that it’s a lot of money for the average person.

Interesting to hear of an additional vendor for these. Yes, I noticed this thread got more action here than on LFPF though I know at least some of the posters here are also on LFPF. I agree with you about the pricing of these. Not a purchase to be done lightly but the price is not out of line for high quality/limited production run. Some may disagree. The 150 mm did sell out.

David

138S · Dec 9, 2020

Looking a bit who owns today the former Rodenstock division manufacturing LF lenses, Rodenstock Precision Optics, in 2000 that division was sold to LINOS AG, in 2010 Qioptiq purchased LINOS. Qioptic was an spin-off from the french Thales big aerospace/defense contractor. In 2013 Excelitas Technologies purchased Qioptic...

Then Excelitas Technologies Corp. (headquaters in Massachusetts) is as an independent company owned by AEA Investors, headquarter in NYC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEA_Investors) , its group of rich investors, "buying midsized companies, improving their operations, and eventually selling them at a profit if all goes to plan. With an exclusive, club-like reputation, the company has interests in..."

Instead, the Rodenstock eyeglasses division is now owned by the European holding company Bridgepoint...

Bob S · Dec 9, 2020

When Dr. Rodenstock sold Rodenstock Precision Optical he kept all of the other Rodenstock divisions under his own control. Unfortunately when he sold the Precision Optical division we lost our ability as the Rodenstock distributor in the USA to get our yearly free eyeglasses!
But you might just look at what companies the current owner controls, it’s a very impressive group of companies.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

Bob S said:
But you might just look at what companies the current owner controls

I did it !

These are the brands they have in the Excelitas basket alone:

For example they make IRST units for the F-15, the Eurofighter and the Rafale, but they don't tell what they are doing right now.

in the EF they call it Passive InfraRed Airborne Tracking Equipment (PIRATE), and it was able to detect the F-22 thermal footprint 50 km far, “Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch” https://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/fia12-typhoon-raptor/

Then a question arises, what Rodenstock "Photo" does in the middle of all that ? Of course they also have many civilian products... but probably Rodenstock "Photo", beyond its civilian activity, may provide excellence in the optics field for the rest of the conglomerate, perhaps the glass the IRST has in its nose used some Rodenstock "Photo" services... who knows ? (...to not speak about on-orbit products)

Still, it is a nice surprise they still have produced some Sironars... of course they don't need to produce some LF glasses have some business, that people play in another league.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

michael_r said:
I still wish my 150mm Rodagon said Rodenstock on it instead of Linos. And the box said Qioptiq and Rodenstock. Strange branding decisions.

This is because Rodagons are sold today for computer vision applications, not considering the darkroom market at all. Those rodagons are used for linear sensors inspecting continuous flow, like when making rolls of paper, steel plate, alluminium or plastic foil... or the Rotary Printing Press output. they place an encoder that moves with the foil and it triggers a single line acquisition for each encoder step making an endless image placed in a circular buffer... those sensors are large (long) and common machine vision lenses don't cover the full sensor, fo they use MF and LF enlarging lenses that are also low in distortion and have a very flat field. They sell this glass for that, so they stamp the brand that is known in that market.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

michael_r said:
I don't know. I bought the Rodagon several years ago when the full lineup of Rodenstock enlarging lenses and LF camera lenses were still current.

LINOS AG purchased Rodenstock Precision Optics in year 2000, probably around 15 years ago (2005) the market for darkroom lenses was totally collapsed yet as used market sourced as much as high quality cheap/used glass was necessary. For sure by 2008 Rodagons were sold mostly for industrial automated inspection, with sells for darkrooms being testimonial at that point.

Bob S · Dec 10, 2020

michael_r said:
I still wish my 150mm Rodagon said Rodenstock on it instead of Linos. And the box said Qioptiq and Rodenstock. Strange branding decisions.

That’s because when Dr Rodenstock sold the Rodenstock Precision Optical division they gave the buyer a 5 year free use of the Rodenstock name. After the 5 years ended the buyer, or their successors, would have to pay a royalty for the use of the Rodenstock name. As Linos was the buyer their name appears on new stock.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

Bob S said:
That’s because when Dr Rodenstock sold the Rodenstock Precision Optical division they gave the buyer a 5 year free use of the Rodenstock name. After the 5 years ended the buyer, or their successors, would have to pay a royalty for the use of the Rodenstock name. As Linos was the buyer their name appears on new stock.

B&H still lists it as Rodenstock, but they hide the Linos stamp

Also Machine Vision gear retailers also show Rodagon product name but they also hide the brand stamp...

AnselMortensen · Dec 10, 2020

138S said:
Also Machine Vision gear retailers also show Rodagon product name but they also hide the brand stamp...

View attachment 261302

And all the photos are of the same 50mm f2.8 lens.

Linhof has a new analogue lens price list

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