Lincoln Cathedral (Scheimpflug, exposure, Olympus OM 35mm film equipment)

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Svenedin

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I hope this is the right place to put this thread. My questions don't fit neatly into any other particular area.

Next week I am taking a short break to the City of Lincoln. This is a leisure trip and the aim is to have an unhurried and relaxing time but to take photographs as well.

My equipment is Olympus OM 35mm.

The star attraction of Lincoln is the gigantic Gothic cathedral (which from 1311-1549 was the tallest building in the world). I would like to take photographs both inside and outside the cathedral.

1) The immediate problem that springs to mind is the convergence that will occur trying to photograph the entire West front of the building. The widest lens I have is the OM Zuiko 24mm. I am not going to invest in a shift or tilt/shift lens just for this trip (even though Olympus did make such lenses and they can be found second hand).

I have an enlarger that can be used according to the Scheimpflug Principle (both the head and lens board can be tilted independently) but I have never actually tried to use this. Since I cannot correct at the taking stage this is the best I can do. How well does this actually work in practice?

2) Inside the cathedral it is fairly dark with a large dynamic range of bright light through stained glass windows and much less well lit stonework. I am considering using TMax100 (or Delta 100) so that I have a fine grained film which can stand selective enlargement (enlarging parts of the negative if necessary). I will need to use a tripod but would almost certainly still need a tripod even if I used a much faster film. Flash is probably prohibited and anyway rather useless in such a huge space.

a) Does TMax 100 sound like a sensible choice? At a similar speed I could use FP4 which to my mind is prettier but not so fine grained.
b) I can spot meter on my OM4-Ti and OM3-Ti. I would usually take some spot readings on the shadows to ensure they have enough exposure and hope that the highlights can stand this (although I may have some difficult printing to do). I can take multiple spot readings, including the highlights, and try to set the exposure at an approximate average. I will of course do some bracketing. I do have an incident light meter too. Are there any better ways for me to approach exposure for the interior photographs?

3) In terms of lenses, my wide angle 24mm would seem the most useful. I also have 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 100mm, 135mm, 180mm, 200mm. I will take as little equipment as possible so I am thinking I will take the 24mm, the 28mm (on another body) and perhaps the longest telephoto for details such a ceiling bosses which are a long way away. My favourite is actually the 100mm as it so small but it isn't much of a telephoto. Would anyone take anything different?

Thanks for any suggestions. Stephen
 

E. von Hoegh

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I'm unfamiliar with the environment of Lincoln Cathedral. Could you use a long (say 85 to 135) lens from farther away, or will the surrounding structures occlude the cathedral?
A 24mm lens used closer will really exaggerate the convergence, and I've never been satisfied with using the enlarger to correct this.
 
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Svenedin

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Thank you for your suggestions. Yes I will check with the cathedral about a tripod (I have e-mailed them). Last time I used one in a U.K. cathedral it wasn’t a problem provided I did not get in anybody’s way and provided I did not take photographs during services. The cathedral opens early in the morning, 0715, and my hotel is close by so I could offer to visit at a very quiet time.

I will try to take exterior photos from further back with a longer lens. The stock photos I have seen on the web appear to have been taken in that way (some from quite a high vantage point).
 
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mark

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It works well. Make sure you use a small aperture for exposure. If you have a good enough magnifier to check focus at the small aperture you are golden If not then do your best to focus at the center of the image then close the aperture up. Get a small carpenter square to make sure your lines are straight as you get rid of the convergence too. A bright magnifier and a square helped me a lot. The high vantage point, distance and longer lens is your best bet for not having to do it in the darkroom.

Then again, it was the tallest building in the world and the convergence can be used creatively.
 
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Svenedin

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It works well. Make sure you use a small aperture for exposure. If you have a good enough magnifier to check focus at the small aperture you are golden If not then do your best to focus at the center of the image then close the aperture up. Get a small carpenter square to make sure your lines are straight as you get rid of the convergence too. A bright magnifier and a square helped me a lot. The high vantage point, distance and longer lens is your best bet for not having to do it in the darkroom.

Then again, it was the tallest building in the world and the convergence can be used creatively.

Good.Thanks for the tips. It sounds like it will be fun!
 

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The Cathedral are happy for you to use a tripod so long as you are courteous. Photographing the West Front is difficult as your position is restricted by other buildings, in particular the Exchequergate. Stitching a number of images is probably the only solution. An alternative solution is a visit to the castle and pay for access to the castle wall. You can then look down on the cathedral and see most of the West Front.
 

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What about Acros. It's extremely smooth, no problems with reciprocity and is supposedly excellent in retaining highlights. Deep shadows go deep black easily, though. So definitely meter for the shadows you'd like to still see.

Edit: those black shadows are what gives that special look. Easily the best film for a non grainy look. But I have fallen victim to underexposed shadows, once at least. That was with incident meter and 120 film. The shadows were just too dark compared to where I had the meter. TTL exposure worked well in 35mm.
 
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Svenedin

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@Peltigera Excellent. Nothing like local knowledge!
@lantau I did consider Acros particularly for reasons of reciprocity but I have never used it and I have TMax 100 (and 400) along with FP4 on hand at home so I really ought to use up my stocks before buying something else. I'd be reluctant to try something entirely new to me without time for a bit of experimentation beforehand. I would not expect my shots to stray into reciprocity failure territory in any case (but who knows until I get there).

Now the fun begins with packing and trying to disciplined :D
 

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@Peltigera Excellent. Nothing like local knowledge!
@lantau I'd be reluctant to try something entirely new to me without time for a bit of experimentation beforehand. I would not expect my shots to stray into reciprocity failure territory in any case (but who knows until I get there).

I understand and actually agree. If those shadows turn out less exposed as you like, which is a real possibility with that film and no previous tests, you'd be disappointed. In your case I was thinking the extreme robustness of overexposed highlights would make Acros ideal for the inside shots. Think dark interior with extreme highlights from the sun hitting through the windows. But as you say, not on this journey.
 

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I would suggest you call the cathedral and see if they allow tripods to be used inside.

No they don't. Well that was the last time I visited some 9 years ago. If anything, the churches have even clamped down more. Durham Cathedral does not even allow hand held photography. I can understand it to some degree because it is a place of peace and quiet there are people who visit there for personal inner peace, possibly after a bereavment and they don't need to be disturbed by clicking cameras.
 

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to really correct it in the darkroom, ideally you need to be able to tilt on all 3 stages: film, lens, and paper. Such enlargers were called Rectifying enlargers, and were used a lot by the military for this kind of work using film from surveillance photography.
 
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Svenedin

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No they don't. Well that was the last time I visited some 9 years ago. If anything, the churches have even clamped down more. Durham Cathedral does not even allow hand held photography. I can understand it to some degree because it is a place of peace and quiet there are people who visit there for personal inner peace, possibly after a bereavment and they don't need to be disturbed by clicking cameras.

I e-malied them and they said:

Dear Dr.Perry

Thank you for your enquiry. We are pleased to know that you will be visiting here next week and are happy to assure you that you may take photos using your tripod as the photos are for your personal use.

We trust you will have a very interesting visit.

Yours sincerely

Janet Arden
 
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to really correct it in the darkroom, ideally you need to be able to tilt on all 3 stages: film, lens, and paper. Such enlargers were called Rectifying enlargers, and were used a lot by the military for this kind of work using film from surveillance photography.

OK. I can tilt the whole enlarger head (the column is marked in degrees for this purpose). I can also tilt the lens board independently of the head and could tilt the easel as well. So yes I can do all 3.
 
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Svenedin

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Everything (except tripod) fitted in a medium sized photo backpack. 2x OM bodies (an OM3-Ti and an OM4-Ti) a Fuji GF670 6x7, 24mm, 28mm, 50mm,100mm, 135mm, 200mm lenses, hoods, filters film, cable release, spare batteries, spare filter keeper, lens cap and lens backs. This is just a means of taking the gear on holiday. I won't take all of that out each day. Does show how compact the OM cameras (and lenses) really are. Conveniently all of the lenses are 49mm filter thread (except the 200mm which is a 55mm filter thread).
 

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BMbikerider

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I e-malied them and they said:

Dear Dr.Perry

Thank you for your enquiry. We are pleased to know that you will be visiting here next week and are happy to assure you that you may take photos using your tripod as the photos are for your personal use.

We trust you will have a very interesting visit.

Yours sincerely

Janet Arden

Well that has changed. Did they mention the charge? 9 years ago it was I seem to remember £5.
 
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Svenedin

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Well that has changed. Did they mention the charge? 9 years ago it was I seem to remember £5.

No they didn’t mention a charge. Do you mean an admission fee? I don’t object to that, although I always give a contribution to the upkeep of the church even if I’m not asked to pay an admission fee.
 

BMbikerider

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No not an admission fee but a charge to take photographs.

I mentioned Durham a few posts back. They used to charge £10 but then about two or three bishops back, they stopped it altogether although they do have evenings in the late summer when it is open for photographers. I think they charge £20 for the evening.
Although I am probably prejudiced, Durham is a far more imposing building than Lincoln, both inside and out, with an outstanding position overlooking the River Wear. It also larger (in area - Lincoln is taller by about 20 metres). There is nothing quite like it. Unfortunately it isn't quite so attractive at present because there is a long term restoration project on the main tower and it is shrouded in white plastic sheeting. It will be like that for a while.

P.S. I stand corrected. I have just Googled 'Lincoln Cathedral' and there is an admission charge of £8 now. No mention of a charge for photography on top
 
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Svenedin

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I did at one time try to visit every cathedral in the U.K. but then I got distracted by French and German cathedrals. I like Lincoln a lot. Personally I think it surpasses York and Durham but all the cathedrals have their own identities and they are all worth visiting, even the tiny ones and the modern ones.

John Ruskin said of Lincoln cathedral: "out and out the most precious piece of architecture in the British Isles and roughly speaking worth any two other cathedral we have".

Barry and Pugin are said to have drawn on Lincoln cathedral for the towers of the Palace of Westminster.

If they charge for photography then I don’t mind.
 

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Both York Minster and Lincoln have the disadvantage of being close to roads and traffic so a complete picture of the building is difficult to obtain without unwanted intrusions. Durham Cathedral is on it's own pedestal, high above the city on a rocky promontory, created by a curve in the River Wear. There are few cars allowed onto the green in front of the main entrance and apart from a few occasions during the year, the number of pedestrians getting in the way are also few, you can almost always get an uninterrupted view. Possibly an even better view, certainly when it is flood lit, is from the railway station on the opposite side of the valley and at roughly the same level as both the Castle and Cathedral.
 
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Svenedin

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Both York Minster and Lincoln have the disadvantage of being close to roads and traffic so a complete picture of the building is difficult to obtain without unwanted intrusions. Durham Cathedral is on it's own pedestal, high above the city on a rocky promontory, created by a curve in the River Wear. There are few cars allowed onto the green in front of the main entrance and apart from a few occasions during the year, the number of pedestrians getting in the way are also few, you can almost always get an uninterrupted view. Possibly an even better view, certainly when it is flood lit, is from the railway station on the opposite side of the valley and at roughly the same level as both the Castle and Cathedral.

Fair enough but I wasn't considering whether or not any particular cathedral is easy to photograph or not. Most are rather difficult because the cities grew around them. My most recent cathedral "bag" was Lichfield. Very pretty and some views across water (but mostly obscured by trees). Unfortunately, quite hemmed in and I only had a short time in terrible, failing light to take any photographs at all.

I took this one of Lichfield. It was taken in December as the light failed in the afternoon. It does show the falling over backwards spires and some convergence. 24mm lens. 35mm TMax400, hand held, wide open f2.8, 1/60s. 8"x10" print. I had to take this in a hurry for 2 reasons. Firstly the failing light and secondly the chap advancing towards me (in the photo with his girlfriend) with a big tripod and his electric camera which he unashamedly set up right in front of me so I couldn't take another shot!! He clearly thought he had a far greater right to take photographs because his camera had a colour tv screen on it or whatever it was (it could have been an electric bread maker). I tried to get this as good as possible by being absolutely spot on the centre and having only film plane tilt on one axis (up/down).

36985914394_sharp_edited-1.jpg
 
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Svenedin

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Great image Svenedin. Stunning example of medieval cathedral architecture. I am a fan of these structures.

Thank you. I actually sneaked out of the last lecture of the day of a boring conference to go and take some photographs. Probably shouldn't admit that :errm:. This was the limit of what I could do handheld and I did not have a tripod. The lens was wide open and I wouldn't trust myself at slower than 1/60s (for me, as I have a bit of a shake I take the focal length, double it and take the reciprocal, then the nearest faster shutter speed e.g. 24x2=48, next higher shutter speed 1/60. Others, who are steadier, can get away with slower shutter speeds). It would have been nice if it wasn't overcast and getting dark but this is the UK in December!

There has been a cathedral at Lichfield since 669 but construction of the current building started in 1195.
 
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Checked the weather forecast for the next few days. Temperatures around freezing, rain, snow. Sounds like fun! Outside photography may be severely limited.
 

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Close ups of snow on the facade could be interesting.
 
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