Lighting Stillife scenes

Hi,

I make black/white stillife photos on 4x5 with all kind of material such as plants, wood, electronic boards, bird wings, eggs etc... Because of the stills I am making i would like to use a fresnel to bring more contrast and highlights into the scenes.
There are a lot of 2nd hand theathre fresnel spots available. Is there something to take into notice before buying such a theathre spot? Are there other peopele using these spots for stills in the studio?

Thanks.

Willie Jan said:

Hi,

I make black/white stillife photos on 4x5 with all kind of material such as plants, wood, electronic boards, bird wings, eggs etc... Because of the stills I am making i would like to use a fresnel to bring more contrast and highlights into the scenes.
There are a lot of 2nd hand theathre fresnel spots available. Is there something to take into notice before buying such a theathre spot? Are there other peopele using these spots for stills in the studio?

Thanks.

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very brave;I find B&Wstill lifes one of the hardest things to do,but all the best luck to you.

I have a couple of theatrical spots that I've "upcycled" to use as lighting in my home. I think the major thing to consider is the wiring. By the time they get retired from a theater they are pretty old with wiring that has been subjected to high heat for the whole operational life.
They are also probably capable of producing more light than you really need, so might require a lot of revision to fit smaller wattage bulbs or alternatives like LED bulbs.

The other problem area is weight, they tend to be very heavy, and so need really sturdy light stands.

What I did to convert mine was to remove the original bulb fixtures and fit LED conversion modules for made for recessed lighting. Mine are mounted to my ceiling beams using the heavy clamps made for theatrical lights and steel pipe that's about 30mm in diameter.

Willie Jan said:

Hi,

I make black/white stillife photos on 4x5 with all kind of material such as plants, wood, electronic boards, bird wings, eggs etc... Because of the stills I am making i would like to use a fresnel to bring more contrast and highlights into the scenes.
There are a lot of 2nd hand theathre fresnel spots available. Is there something to take into notice before buying such a theathre spot? Are there other peopele using these spots for stills in the studio?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Hoi, Willie!

I have spots in my little studio, but I don't use them for my still lifes yet. I prefer daylight —and have done several this way in the past, including the photo in my avatar—, but my current studio is situated in a way that won't allow me to use window light, so ... who knows what the future will hold!

To answer your question: Spots, being electric and not electronic, are generally pretty safe to buy, second hand, as far as "defects" go.. What I mean is, they're just lamps, you know? So, even if there's a wiring problem, you can just re-wire it*. Socket rusted? Just replace it! Ugly? Paint it (with temperature resistant paint).

The only things I can think to be careful of are: make sure the fresnel lens isn't broken. Yes, you can replace them, but sometimes the right size isn't easy to find, or may be more expensive than what you paid for the whole spotlight. The other thing is to make sure it's electrically safe..* You might even want to re-wire it —and make sure it's grounded— even if it looks OK. Lastly, check that the bulb type is still —or easily — available .. You might want to change the socket for this reason.

Hope this helps you!

Christopher

Theatre spots have a pretty broad spot and often too much light for a simple still life. The best continuous light spots are Dedo Lights they are small they can give you a really small spot and can also be used as small floods. A cheap source for spots are old slide projectors. Both the Dedo and the slide projector can really focus the light fresnels aren't as precise imo. The best light is daylight (soft window light) used with reflectors, black flags (dark boards to create shadows or swallow some of the light). Another good way to create some interesting effects is painting with light using a small torch.

Good luck

MDR said:

Theatre spots have a pretty broad spot and often too much light for a simple still life. The best continuous light spots are Dedo Lights they are small they can give you a really small spot and can also be used as small floods. A cheap source for spots are old slide projectors. Both the Dedo and the slide projector can really focus the light fresnels aren't as precise imo. The best light is daylight (soft window light) used with reflectors, black flags (dark boards to create shadows or swallow some of the light). Another good way to create some interesting effects is painting with light using a small torch.

Good luck

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Hi MDR,

I have the Dedos and they are indeed excellent for certain types of lightings, maybe even for still lifes, depending upon the photographer's intention. For example, Dedolight —used from a distance— can absolutely give the illusion of direct sunlight. To be clear, I'm a huge Dedo fan and I'm currently using them as kickers for my portrait lightings.

Personally, however, —because of their famous optical system which delivers a pretty hard shadow— I'm not sure I'd generally use them for still lifes, myself, other than for certain special effects or when certain accents are wanted.

Of course —if a hard shadow is not wanted— there are several ways to avoid it including simply using a small piece of diffusion material in front of the lens ... but then, if you're going to do that, why not just just a small, less expensive fresnel unit instead?

Which reminds me: When I see "spots" mentioned in association with "still life" I always think of "product photography, à la 1950s". Therefore, a question for Willie: Is that the look you are trying to achieve (product photography)? Or, are you after a more natural look?


Best,

Christopher

Lighting products with Fresnels is more than just the light...even when focused to a narrow
beam, they still have a pretty wide area, and usually, one needs to flag and scrim for shadow control.

Very small units are available from B&H, new, reliable and have many accessories to help control
the light source. I thing to remember is for shadow control, flagging close to the subject creates harder
shadows, close to the light source creates softer shadows.

Flags need stands too.

For the 1950's look a Fresnel works probably better. Just not a theater fresnel. Most fresnel lights are just too hot imo, whereas the Dedos have a rather low wattage which I prefer for Stillifes (no danger to the objects and less hot). Dedos also have less light spill.

MDR said:

For the 1950's look a Fresnel works probably better. Just not a theater fresnel. Most fresnel lights are just too hot imo, whereas the Dedos have a rather low wattage which I prefer for Stillifes (no danger to the objects and less hot). Dedos also have less light spill.

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Why wouldn't a theater fresnel work? I realize that you previously said that they "have a pretty broad spot and often too much light for a simple still life", but aren't you forgetting controls such as the spot/flood adjustment, barndoors, scrims, ND gels, voltage regulators or simply moving the luminaire further away from the subject or using a lower wattage lamp?

While I agree that these units can get warm (again, we can still just change the lamp!), I think it would be unfair to put Willie completely off the possibility of using a theater fresnel for his still lifes, if he wants to try. After all, we don't know the distances involved or the size of his shooting space. To my mind, these luminaires —as well as many other types— could work just. It just depends on how they're used.

I will also agree that if they are used too close to the subject, it would create problems, of course.

Hey, where's Willie to answer some of these mysteries?

He wants to photograph plants, wings, electronic boards, eggs that implies to me a smaller size a theatre fresnel spot has to be put very close to the object if you want a small spot. Plants can wither or burn if too much heat is involved. I am all for fresnel spots but not theater fresnel especially if you can get pretty inexpensive low wattage fresnel spotlights (some Arri knockoffs) on Amazon.com

I also would advice the op to rent some spots to see if he can get the effect/look he wants from fresnel spots or if another light would be a better choice to get the desired results

(I'll toss out this idea, just in case ...) About two years ago I was contemplating some still life sorts of things here and picked up two spring clamp sockets and a pair of daylight PAR 20 LED (relatively small reflectorized) lamps. (Don't know what you may have across the pond.) I've pretty much ended up using them for occasional work lights. For my original use, I found the beams narrow and the the light rather bright and harsh. These were rated at 8 watts input, equivalent to a 50 watt tungsten PAR output. In some ways I was amazed at how much light they put out; of course the reflector types of lamps push all the light out the front, as opposed to spherical distribution.

While they did not quite suit me at the time, it is a joy to work under lights that aren't pouring out heat like a furnace, I'm sure I'll eventually use them for some photographic tinkering.

Just a thought ...

Lightning systems and recording materials are going hand in hand.
In the period around WWII, when fresnel spots, and 'flooters', where common use, the film material was rather different compared to nowadays emulsions.
Do some tets, also with processing your film, and you will see what's the best combo.
To my own experience, T-Max 100 (and Tri-X) processed in Pyrocat H-D pairs very well with the Rosco LED litepad kit (see my website), but that's a very personal appreciation...

BTW, I think that continuous light serves still-life much better than flash light. With the former you immediately see what you get, and by this giving you the opportunity to better 'develop' the light for a given scene, but, again, this is a very personal appreciation!
As already said by an other poster, flagging off the light is a very good practice to control the balance between highlights and shadows.

And, of course, daylight is day light and a kind of its own (and for free)...

Wow, I didn't know the Dedos where that expensive...

Theathre fresnels are quite inexpensive here 2nds hand. But they are heat consuming, that's true.

If you use led, is the result not different than using bulbs????

Willie Jan said:

...

If you use led, is the result not different than using bulbs????

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I think maybe the jury is still out on that. The LED units may be had in tungsten-like and daylight color temperatures. As with compact fluorescents, the spectrum is less continuous than incandescent bulbs, although I think general consensus is the LEDs are better than CFLs in that regard. Loosely speaking, anything should work reasonably well for B&W, I guess color might take a bit of testing. A high CRI (Color Rendering Index) is supposed to be desirable (I think there was a recent thread on the topic somewhere here.)

Re-reading my earlier post, I think I was rambling a bit. But I was trying to suggest if you want a relatively strong narrow beam, you might be able to work with the LED reflector bulbs. The PAR 20 flavors I bought could probably work pretty well for a modest sized tabletop setup for highlighting. In my original try, I ended up wanting to go more diffuse and wound up using soft boxes. The LED bulbs in general are heavier than they look, as bulbs go, because of a built in die cast heatsink. But they are relatively light compared with big time theatrical lighting and might lend themselves to easier mounting arrangements. Here, when I bought those bulbs they were about $20 USD apiece, so don't buy three or four on my say-so until you try one!

Willie Jan said:

Wow, I didn't know the Dedos where that expensive...

Theathre fresnels are quite inexpensive here 2nds hand. But they are heat consuming, that's true.

If you use led, is the result not different than using bulbs????

Click to expand...

The main problem with led light is color balance but that isn't really that important with todays B/W films if you want to shoot color on the other hand you might run into some problems. LED Pars (for Discos) are available and not that expensive. Conrad electronics in the Netherlands sells them. The Datasheet should tell you the beamangle and Lumen. https://www.conrad.nl/nl/Search.html?search=par+Led+spot
Visit a Conrad Store and see them in action before buying.

Good Luck

Sheesh. I use theatrical fresnels weekly for photo and video shoots. If the wiring is good, they're fine. I have L&E (altman) theatrical fresnels I bought 16 years ago. I've converted some to HMI (well, HID). They're great lights.

I have some 3" chinese Arri knockoffs as well, 300 watts and very useful. I have some 6" that can be lamped from 300 to 1k. I have 1.5" inch units that take 100 - 150 watts. All very handy, all have their uses.

Go to Harbor Freight and get a couple Router Speed Controls, which are 1k dimmers (good for up to 1000 watts). Household dimmers are generally good to 600 but will burn out fairly quickly at that level. (Dimming for color will make the light much warmer though).

The thing about fresnels isn't just aiming light at something - the lens provides a "just right" mix of hard and soft. Nothing else is really like it. It's nothing at all like diffused light. Using a slide projector? That's some very hard light, and have fun sticking it on a stand to aim it. (If you want hard light, get a used Leko or ellipsoidal light. They're all over the place and affordable if you hunt around). Generally you'll use a big diffused source (softbox, panel setups, bounce) for overall soft light, and fresnels as kickers or rim lights or to add some sparkle - that's certainly not a hard & fast rule but seems to be the way lots of folks use fresnels.

And the comments about burning plants and stuff? Do you need lights an inch away from the plants? Are you looking for a 2000 watt 16" fresnel? No? Fresnels are usually at at least some distance to get the effect of the lens. You'll be fine.

LEDs? Fine if you want to diffuse them for soft lights. There are no LED fresnels as of now that you want to pay for, unless you have a few grand to burn.

Poke around on eBay - there are usually many 6" and 10" altman/L&E units… but some older units use twist-in projector bulbs; newer stuff uses bipin globes that are a little cheaper and in my experience, more robust. The chinese fresnels are really not bad, but I'd check the wiring and grounding on 'em - really inexpensive, brand new, and there are now US distributors.

Also google Pyramid Films, they often have a lot of stuff, or call them if nothing's listed. Google Cool Lights, they manufacture in China with US sales and service. More pricey that straight-from-China knockoffs but a great company - I have several of their tungsten fresnels. If you buy a used theatrical light, you may have to ditch the c-clamp and get a spud - search for a TVMP adapter. And get the Manfrotto, not the Matthews - the Matthews needs tools to get on and off the stand, the manfrotto has a big t-handle. You'll also need to replace the theatrical distro plug with an edison plug from the hardware store in most cases.

The best units are mole-richardson (old school, cast and stamped metal) and Arri (modern, extruded aluminum, very pretty fixtures) - those are hollywood/filmmaker go-to brands. L&E (Altman), Lee, Berkey-Colortran, Desisti, Century - all kinds of stuff out there used. Older stuff may be heavy cast metal, or stamped steel cans. There are some gorgeous space-age retro units out there if you're into that. Regardless of brand, as far as the light looks on your set? I can never tell a difference. It's more about the reflector and the lens.

Reagarding the slide projector one can use a tiltable projector stand it is not as versatile as a true light stand and spot, second regarding the hard light just defocus it slightly and it will become less hard.
Regarding plants and burning if it is a small stillife and you want a spot effect you have to get closer a 1k theater spot will make the plant look less than fresh after a few minutes in direct light 3feet away. Burn was I admit an exagerration.
I am all for the use of fresnels but not above 300W for small Stillifes and theater fresnels are often in the 1k+ range at least those that can be found for little money. If he can find some second hand Mole inbetweenies and betweenies in Europe they would make a good light imo. But Mole are rarely used in Europe. Hedler should be easier to find for super cheap and new Arri knockoffs Amazon sells the HWAStudio Fresnel spots with 150W up to 1k.

Americans really have a huge advantage when it comes to buying good second hand lighting as they have Hollywood wereas Europe has pretty much killed its movie industry and therefore there is a lot less choice of good second hand lights. I am envious

My hangup is theater fresnels (for the Theater stage), photo or movie fresnels is another story.

M Carter said:

And the comments about burning plants and stuff? Do you need lights an inch away from the plants? Are you looking for a 2000 watt 16" fresnel? No? Fresnels are usually at at least some distance to get the effect of the lens. You'll be fine.

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I do not put the lights to close to the subject. I Always use some distance. So no problem there.

Use daylight and reflectors. It is the light of now and not of the past.

cliveh said:

Use daylight and reflectors. It is the light of now and not of the past.

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Actually clive, you are using light of the past send some time ago from the sun