Light brown areas in film

otto.f · Feb 10, 2022

NB23 said:
Well by reading your post I see you have used water as stop bath. That is never a good idea. Water doesn’t stop developer, it slows it down. Your “stop” is actually an extended development bath.

Developer and fix compete against each other and the resulting reaction is staining. Stained prints, ever saw them? You will always introduce developer in your fixer if you use a water “stop” bath which truly is a “diluted developer bath”. This will also weaken your fixer quite a bit.

A true ACID stop bath is mandatory. Stop messing around with water “stop” bath. Water doesn’t stop anything.

+1 By 'stopping' with water and fixer you get uncomparable results and you never know when something is not as expected with your known developer film combinations

RalphLambrecht · Feb 10, 2022

NB23 said:
Yes, 5 water bath changes would indeed get rid of enough developer and avoid fixer contamination, thus staining. But then, why hassle with 5 water changes when a proper acid stop bath costs about 0.05$ and gets things done.

bingo!

RalphLambrecht · Feb 10, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I fix from 5 minutes for freshly mixed fixer to 10 minutes for older fixer.

I hope this is not misunderstood to think that exhausted fixer can be compensated with extending fixing time;that ain't so. the silver content of fixer must be below 1g/l to be effective; best to use fresh fixer for a second fixing bath!

Pat Erson · Feb 10, 2022

NB23 said:
The culprit is not the age of the fixer, nor its weakesv. When stains are in question, on print or on film, the culprit is the presence of developer inside the fixer.

Mmmmm... Digging out my Ilford "bible" I read : "a half-full concentrated fixer jug will keep 6 months".
At 8, the O.P. is in danger zone, hence the bronzed negs.

In my basement I have a 5l. Tetenal jug that I opened on Jan. 15. No matter what happens, on July 15 I'll dump what remains of it in the toilet.
.

NB23 · Feb 10, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
I'm not sure of NB23's assertion that developer stains are the culprit. Even an acid stop bath doesn't wash out the residual developer. Usually, the time in an acid stop is only 30 seconds or so, not nearly long enough to remove the developer from the emulsion. Some of it gets carried over to the fixer anyway, no matter what.

Best,

Doremus

Yes some developer goes into the fixer but with modified alcalinity.

I have experienced all this, first hand, especially as a teenager where I sometimes did not even bother to use a bath, any kind of bath, between developer and fixer. Stains were always the result.

And emulsion being an emulsion, film or paper, the test is easy to make.
It costs 1$ and takes 2 minutes.

Take a 5x7 print preferably Fiber base, and develop it. While it’s in the developing bath abd somewhere half way into the development stage start pouring fixer into the developer bath. This has now become a bath where fixer and developer are battling.
Watch the reaction; one way the paper is getting developed and at the same time it is fixing, and brown stains start to form. While the paper is wet the look is quite nice, but once it dries down it becomes ugly to look at. This is a nice way of creating photos with a ratty vintage look.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 12, 2022

NB23,

I'll try just tossing a print straight from the developer into the fixer next time I'm printing. Still, I'm skeptical. And, it must also make a difference if one is using an acid, neutral or alkaline fix...

We haven't heard heard back from the OP to find out whether re-fixing solved his problem. William?

Best,

Doremus

NB23 · Feb 12, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
NB23,

I'll try just tossing a print straight from the developer into the fixer next time I'm printing. Still, I'm skeptical. And, it must also make a difference if one is using an acid, neutral or alkaline fix...

We haven't heard heard back from the OP to find out whether re-fixing solved his problem. William?

Best,

Doremus

The fixer bath must be saturated with developer. If the fix bath is not saturated with developer, your experiment will be the same as refixing a poorly fixed print, since the clean fixer (or not contaminated enough) will end up winning over.

i would suggest that your test should be done with a fixing bath that you are about to discard, and into which you will have added developer, prior to fixing the print.
Don’t be afraid to add enough developer. This will only accentuate the effect.

In my case, I would add 100ml of my developer solution (ilford mg 1:9) to an existing 1000ml fixer bath (hypam 1:4)

Doremus Scudder · Feb 13, 2022

NB23 said:
The fixer bath must be saturated with developer. ...

Any fixing bath that gets so much carried-over developer as to be that saturated has almost certainly been overused, especially if there's a water bath or stop in between and one reasonably drains the negatives between steps. The amount of liquid a thin-emulsion film can hold in the emulsion itself is minuscule. In order to "saturate" a liter of fixer with carried-over developer, it would take massive amounts.

Even so, I get some discoloration in my fixer as it approaches the end of its life from PMK-developed negatives. Never any discoloration on the negatives, however.

Doremus

NB23 · Feb 13, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
Any fixing bath that gets so much carried-over developer as to be that saturated has almost certainly been overused, especially if there's a water bath or stop in between and one reasonably drains the negatives between steps. The amount of liquid a thin-emulsion film can hold in the emulsion itself is minuscule. In order to "saturate" a liter of fixer with carried-over developer, it would take massive amounts.

Even so, I get some discoloration in my fixer as it approaches the end of its life from PMK-developed negatives. Never any discoloration on the negatives, however.

Doremus

The exaggerated test’s only purpose is to give exaggerated results. Quick.

anyhow, I don’t know why I’m putting any more time on this issue. All has been said and it is a known fact that developer+ fixer will stain a print and will stain film.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 15, 2022

NB23 said:
The exaggerated test’s only purpose is to give exaggerated results. Quick.

anyhow, I don’t know why I’m putting any more time on this issue. All has been said and it is a known fact that developer+ fixer will stain a print and will stain film.

Yeah, it's just a thought experiment at this point, so don't feel obliged to comment if it takes up too much time.

Just about every processing regime I know of allows some carried-over developer to get into the fixer. Even with an acid stop, enough developer gets carried over into an alkaline fixer that the pH of the fix will reactivate it and cause fogging if the lights are turned on too early (don't ask me how I know ).

I've been developing film and printing for over 30 years and have never got a stain on either film or paper with one exception, and that was with one particular developer and paper. Changing developers solved that problem. I use an acid stop bath and recommend others do too.

I don't know in which conditions "developer+fixer" will stain film and paper, but I've never encountered them.

Best,

Doremus

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 15, 2022

HP5's film base shouldn't be purple if it's been fixed long enough, in fresh fixer. Refix and most likely the yellowish stain (and purple) that I can barely make will go away.

William Gonzales · Feb 16, 2022

@Doremus
I have re-fixed with fresh fixer for 3 minutes and it solved the problem.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment and share your experiences!!!

Pat Erson · Feb 17, 2022

"I don’t know why I’m putting any more time on this issue. All has been said and it is a known fact that developer+ fixer will stain a print and will stain film"

The only time I've seen was when a newbie (me in the late 90's) would contaminate the dev tray with drops of fixer. The prints made with that dubiuous soup would have an orange/bronze tint on the edges on the back side.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 17, 2022

William Gonzales said:
@Doremus
I have re-fixed with fresh fixer for 3 minutes and it solved the problem.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment and share your experiences!!!

Glad things worked out.

Just keep an eye on fixer age and throughput capacity to avoid the problem in the future. Ilford's tech sheet has all the info and it is generally applicable to most rapid fixers.

Doremus

Light brown areas in film

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