Light brown areas in film

William Gonzales · Feb 8, 2022

Hi All,
I have developed 2 120 rolls of Ilford HP5 Plus and most of the frames have light brown areas, please see the attachments, it is more noticeable in the space between frames.
How they were processed:
Developer: D-76 1:1 (it was fresh, not reused, mixed a week before)
20°C/68°F
Time: 11 minutes
Volume: 500 ml (for each roll)
Agitation: 30 seconds for the first minute, then 10 seconds every minute.
Water stop bath.
Fixer: ILFORD Rapid Fixer / 3 minutes (did a test before developing and it cleared a small cut of the same film in 1 minute)
Washed
NOTE: the tap water used for the stop bath and washing was approximately 24°C.

I would appreciate any comment on what might be the cause. One of the rolls is 90% with that color.
A couple of days before, I had developed 2 135 rolls of Ilford Delta 100 and no problems, the developer was from the same batch, the same fixer.

Thanks,
William Gonzales

MattKing · Feb 8, 2022

Personally, I can't see any brown.
But generally, if I do see any brown, I re-fix.

abruzzi · Feb 8, 2022

I had something like that on a roll of TMAX100 (notorious for requiring more fixing). I used some fairly used developer. I re-fixed in fresh fixer and it went away. If your fixer is fresh, maybe it just needed more time?

tokam · Feb 9, 2022

Your fixing time of 3 mins may be a wee bit short. I test my fix before each film and although my clearing time is around 90 seconds I fix for 4 - 5 minutes in Ilford Rapid Fix.

BTW. The skies in those negs look glorious. Would like to see the printed results.

NB23 · Feb 9, 2022

Brown color, on a film or on print, is the fixer competing with developer.
Your stop bath is extremely weak (was it water only? That’s not good practice).
Fix longer.

NB23 · Feb 9, 2022

Well by reading your post I see you have used water as stop bath. That is never a good idea. Water doesn’t stop developer, it slows it down. Your “stop” is actually an extended development bath.

Developer and fix compete against each other and the resulting reaction is staining. Stained prints, ever saw them? You will always introduce developer in your fixer if you use a water “stop” bath which truly is a “diluted developer bath”. This will also weaken your fixer quite a bit.

A true ACID stop bath is mandatory. Stop messing around with water “stop” bath. Water doesn’t stop anything.

koraks · Feb 9, 2022

NB23 said:
Developer and fix compete against each other and the resulting reaction is staining

No. If that were the case, a monobath couldn't work. And yet, it does.

This is likely just an example of under fixing. It looks yellowish because that's within the color range of silver nanoparticles.

NB23 said:
A true ACID stop bath is mandatory

No, it isn't. It doesn't hurt either, but it's not mandatory.

otto.f · Feb 9, 2022

Fixing 3min is too short for me. I use two fixing baths, 2x 2,5 minutes, since I found that this helps with T-grain films that have a magenta cast. After a few films the second fixer becomes the first and the fresh fixer becomes the second.

bedrof · Feb 9, 2022

This definitely looks like old fixer. If it is fresh try longer fixing time.

john_s · Feb 9, 2022

If you use water as a stop, it needs to be for long enough to mostly wash out the developer. D76 is a fairly concentrated developer so would take a while. I use water as a "stop" but my developer is rather dilute. For paper, I always use acid stop, in order to avoid brown stains.

ruilourosa · Feb 9, 2022

NB23 said:
Well by reading your post I see you have used water as stop bath. That is never a good idea. Water doesn’t stop developer, it slows it down. Your “stop” is actually an extended development bath.

Developer and fix compete against each other and the resulting reaction is staining. Stained prints, ever saw them? You will always introduce developer in your fixer if you use a water “stop” bath which truly is a “diluted developer bath”. This will also weaken your fixer quite a bit.

A true ACID stop bath is mandatory. Stop messing around with water “stop” bath. Water doesn’t stop anything.

An acidic stop bath is not mandatory... Nor is an acidic fixer... Is just a bit more foolproof regarding amateur users... and it become almost a tradition...

My film processing is all alkaline or neutral.
A water stop bath should be in running water for at least one minute, emptying the tank fully in the middle, or five changes 20 seconds each with agitation.

Not using acid stop and fixer you have shorter washing times...

RalphLambrecht · Feb 9, 2022

William Gonzales said:
Hi All,
I have developed 2 120 rolls of Ilford HP5 Plus and most of the frames have light brown areas, please see the attachments, it is more noticeable in the space between frames.
How they were processed:
Developer: D-76 1:1 (it was fresh, not reused, mixed a week before)
I strongly advise to consider thetwo-bath fixing method!
20°C/68°F
Time: 11 minutes
Volume: 500 ml (for each roll)
Agitation: 30 seconds for the first minute, then 10 seconds every minute.
Water stop bath.
Fixer: ILFORD Rapid Fixer / 3 minutes (did a test before developing and it cleared a small cut of the same film in 1 minute)
Washed
NOTE: the tap water used for the stop bath and washing was approximately 24°C.

I would appreciate any comment on what might be the cause. One of the rolls is 90% with that color.
A couple of days before, I had developed 2 135 rolls of Ilford Delta 100 and no problems, the developer was from the same batch, the same fixer.

Thanks,
William Gonzales

NB23 · Feb 9, 2022

ruilourosa said:
An acidic stop bath is not mandatory... Nor is an acidic fixer... Is just a bit more foolproof regarding amateur users... and it become almost a tradition...

My film processing is all alkaline or neutral.
A water stop bath should be in running water for at least one minute, emptying the tank fully in the middle, or five changes 20 seconds each with agitation.

Not using acid stop and fixer you have shorter washing times...

Yes, 5 water bath changes would indeed get rid of enough developer and avoid fixer contamination, thus staining. But then, why hassle with 5 water changes when a proper acid stop bath costs about 0.05$ and gets things done.

NB23 · Feb 9, 2022

john_s said:
If you use water as a stop, it needs to be for long enough to mostly wash out the developer. D76 is a fairly concentrated developer so would take a while. I use water as a "stop" but my developer is rather dilute. For paper, I always use acid stop, in order to avoid brown stains.

length is not enough, it must involve water changes in order to get rid of the developer.

William Gonzales · Feb 9, 2022

Thanks everyone for your responses.
The fixer was mixed 8 months ago approximately, used for about 15 rolls, it seems that it is time to be replaced.
Is it possible to fix again those 2 rolls?

Pat Erson · Feb 9, 2022

William Gonzales said:
The fixer was mixed 8 months ago approximately, used for about 15 rolls, it seems that it is time to be replaced.

Is it possible to fix again those 2 rolls?

8 months? Look no further you got your culprit! I had fixing problems with Tetenal fixer that was only 6 weeks old.

Yes you can refix them and you can do it in "full" light in a tray as if your negs were prints.
(check your stock fixer it might be dead too).

Sirius Glass · Feb 9, 2022

I fix from 5 minutes for freshly mixed fixer to 10 minutes for older fixer.

NB23 · Feb 9, 2022

Pat Erson said:
8 months? Look no further you got your culprit! I had fixing problems with Tetenal fixer that was only 6 weeks old.

Yes you can refix them and you can do it in "full" light in a tray as if your negs were prints.
(check your stock fixer it might be dead too).

The culprit is not the age of the fixer, nor its weakess. When stains are in question, on print or on film, the culprit is the presence of developer inside the fixer.

An old, weak fixer will create clouds/cloudy negs, but without the color. If it’s colored, it means the fixer is saturated with developer.

gone · Feb 9, 2022

I think it's a fixer issue, and I can't see any brown on the negs either, but looking at them on a computer screen isn't like having them in front of you. My plan would be to clip test the fixer you have and calculate the proper fixing times, or throw it out and start fresh.

As for using water as a stop bath, that's something I've been doing for 30 years and never had one issue, it's not that. You can't do that w/ prints (or at least I've never tried), but water for a film stop is fine.

NB23 · Feb 9, 2022

momus said:
I think it's a fixer issue, and I can't see any brown on the negs either, but looking at them on a computer screen isn't like having them in front of you. My plan would be to clip test the fixer you have and calculate the proper fixing times, or throw it out and start fresh.

As for using water as a stop bath, that's something I've been doing for 30 years and never had 1 issue, it's not that.

of course it’s that, 100%.

And this is a serious forum, therefore please try not to spread false information, or straight misinformation. You are not helping the comunity.

Juan Valdenebro · Feb 9, 2022

NB is right.
This happened to me in the past, when I went the wrong way: I liked trying water as stop bath doing a few inversions and three changes... That worked well... Then, I imagined it could be done without the water changes, but after a few rolls my fixer, dirty with developer, started to stain my films. Indeed it happened to me in two different moments, but I only understood it the second time because it was worse: I was using Rodinal that second time, so staining was a lot stronger than with previous developers.

MattKing · Feb 9, 2022

Using stop bath helps protect the life of your fixer.
Using a reasonably lengthy running water rinse between developer and fixer comes close.
A multiple change of water rinse between developer and fixer has to be done really well to also come close.
I do a clip test of fixer in parallel with every roll of film I fix.

Sirius Glass · Feb 9, 2022

We all know that stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive, that we are willing to destroy the fixer with our pig pigheadedness!

Doremus Scudder · Feb 9, 2022

William Gonzales said:
Thanks everyone for your responses.
The fixer was mixed 8 months ago approximately, used for about 15 rolls, it seems that it is time to be replaced.
Is it possible to fix again those 2 rolls?

Old fixer doesn't help.

Not using a real stop bath doesn't help.

Not fixing long enough doesn't help either. Fixing for twice the clearing time is the minimum you need for adequate fixing given that you are doing everything else right. Since film doesn't have a problem with fixer soaking into the base, fixing a bit longer won't hurt and is good insurance. I always fix longer, usually 4-6 minutes.

Also, if you're going to do the clearing-time test, you need to establish a base line by getting a clearing time for a given film in fresh, unused, fixer. Then, you need to keep track of the clearing time and discard the fix when the clearing time approaches twice that in fresh fix.

I'm not sure of NB23's assertion that developer stains are the culprit. Even an acid stop bath doesn't wash out the residual developer. Usually, the time in an acid stop is only 30 seconds or so, not nearly long enough to remove the developer from the emulsion. Some of it gets carried over to the fixer anyway, no matter what.

To answer your question: yes, you can refix your film. Soak in water for a few minutes and then re-fix as usual (in fresh fixer).

Best,

Doremus

Juan Valdenebro · Feb 9, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
We all know that stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive, that we are willing to destroy the fixer with our pig pigheadedness!

Fotunately some of us learn one day...
I use water years ago without any problem.
That last minute washing developer with a few inversions and three changes is part of my system. I use my external bowl's water: perfect temperature. Very easy.
And I have a new litre of acetic acid here, but I just don't care: it doesn't make better photographs.
If one day I do any process requiring chemical stop, I'll do it happily too.

Light brown areas in film

William Gonzales

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